Fly the flag of the Confederate States of America?
July 9, 2015 at 3:07 am #204
Is there any circumstance under which the federal government or any state government ought to fly the Confederate flag? Please explain your answer.July 9, 2015 at 4:14 am #210
It makes sense to fly it over a Civil War battlefield, but only if the US flag is flown there as well. (In fact, it’d be even better if the US flag of the time were flown there. It’s still legal to use any old US flag design.) It has a tie to the history of the battlefield.
To answer the question you are probably at least as interested in, I don’t think it makes sense to fly it at any state capitol building.July 9, 2015 at 4:25 am #211
There are confederate cemeteries all through the South. The controversial flag is actually the battle flag of the Army of Virginia. The appropriate flag for a confederate cemetery is the stars and bars CSA flag that belongs to that year (it changed three times).
July 9, 2015 at 4:59 am #213
_Robert_, good catch. I didn’t really notice what GM called it.
It has fourteen stars, yet IIRC the confederacy was eleven states (VA, NC, SC, GA, FL, AL, TN, MS, AR, LA, and TX). I believe they were claiming at the time that MO, KY and MD had been illegally prevented from seceding, so that would be where the 14 comes from.July 9, 2015 at 1:30 pm #224
Yes, I can think of a situation where it would be appropriate to fly the CSA flag. Louisiana has a long and unique history of flags. Louisiana was a territory controlled by Spain, France, and England, and it changed hands back and forth several times. It was part of the West Florida Republic. It was a Confederate State and a United State before and after that. And for a couple months back in 1861 Louisiana flew the flag of an independent nation.
Today the Louisiana State Archives flies all the flags that have flown over Louisiana. The Archives is an agency of the office of the Secretary of State, so a state government office. I think it’s appropriate to fly the CSA flag along with all the others.July 9, 2015 at 2:22 pm #230
It is the flag of treason, aggression, and bigotry, a symbol throughout the world of oppression and one of the worst violations of human rights perpetrated against a people for financial gain. While there are rare circumstances where it’s appropriate to be displayed in a historical context, it is never appropriate to salute it or fly it.July 9, 2015 at 2:55 pm #231July 9, 2015 at 3:46 pm #233
If we are going to ban flags of political entities which have committed crimes against humanity, we will be obliged to remove the Stars and Bars of the U.S. and the British Union jack, and all derivations of these. In fact, we will be obliged to destroy almost ever flag ever flown. No confederate flags in governmental settings must be the choice, but berating and attacking someone wearing it on a t-shirt is a violation of free speech.July 9, 2015 at 3:51 pm #234
Huh… are replies not threaded in this new site? That’s too bad. It makes sub-discussions hard.
I was going to say, @_Robert_, that on that basis, we should throw out Darwin’s work as well, since it has been used to justify racism and eugenics and other awful things for generations.
I’m not sure that logic is sound, are you?July 9, 2015 at 4:38 pm #235
@drbob, Hi – you’ve decided (for now) to come with us. Excellent. At the moment there is no threading here. Threading has advantages and disadvantages – can’t decide yet whether I prefer it or not. People seem to be adopting a convention of putting @ with the person (or people) they are replying to as the start of a reply.
I don’t think we should throw the whole Bible out. As I’ve commented before, though, I wish religion were adaptable enough to at least throw out parts of it. The parts we now think are wrong. We certainly do that with Darwin’s work. The Origin of Species is not a Bible.July 9, 2015 at 5:01 pm #237
“If we are going to ban flags…”
Nobody suggested that we ban flags.
“…of political entities which have committed crimes against humanity, we will be obliged to remove the Stars and Bars of the U.S. and the British Union jack, and all derivations of these. In fact, we will be obliged to destroy almost ever flag ever flown.”
The “political entity” in question– unlike the United States– was founded on a Constitution which codifies white supremacy, genocidal racism, and slavery, all under divine commission. To defend that Constitution the Confederate States started the bloodiest war that Americans have ever fought.
Nobody is suggesting that state governments or the federal government ought to fly the Union Jack or almost any other flag ever flown, nor to ban or destroy them either.
“No confederate flags in governmental settings must be the choice…”
Given the defense you just mounted, why not?
…but berating and attacking someone wearing it on a t-shirt is a violation of free speech.”
If you mean the attack is figurative that is an exercise of free speech not a violation of it. If you mean the attack is physical it would be a violation of criminal laws against assault and battery, not free speech.July 9, 2015 at 7:55 pm #244
It is interesting (but logical) that the issue of retiring the flag of a vanquished enemy of the United States that waged war to maintain and expand slavery should be a topic of focus.
My concern is that once again we as Athiest pass on a far more troubling issue from an Athiest standpoint. Which is why a so called “loving God” did not give any warning to nine of his most dedicated followers that a racist sociopath was coming to kill the entire flock.
Even more pathetic was the Obama Eulogy that essentially posited that God wanted this to happen so that we could have a dialog about racism.
Instead we completely ignore the real question is what kind of sociopathic God endorses mass killing to spur a dialog on race.
All this wringing of hands over what amounts to the display of racial hatred is pathetic.July 9, 2015 at 10:39 pm #248
Darwin’s book does not endorse racism and I believe the morality of human eugenics is not exactly clear yet. We sure use selective breeding for crops and livestock. The Bible directly endorses slavery. Ironically, anybody who connects the theory of evolution with racism is probably biblically driven.July 10, 2015 at 2:42 am #266
“There are confederate cemeteries all through the South.
Not to put too fine a point on it but there are no Confederate cemeteries.
The Confederacy never existed at all from a legal standpoint. No foreign government ever recognized the Confederacy. The southern states were in rebellion to defend slavery. That’s all.
There are American cemeteries with the graves of those who fought for the Confederacy.
The controversial flag is actually the battle flag of the Army of Virginia.
That’s worth noting, but the point is that it’s a Confederate flag. One legislator had proposed the “solution” of swapping one type of Confederate flag for another, which misses the point.
The appropriate flag for a confederate cemetery is the stars and bars CSA flag that belongs to that year (it changed three times).”
The owners of a cemetery on private land may fly a Confederate flag if they want. A failed nation and war, both started for the defense of white supremacy and slavery, is no “heritage” I’d want to preserve, let alone be proud of. I’m gratified to see that some legislatures are realizing what is appropriate for a cemetery on public land.July 10, 2015 at 2:34 pm #276
” I’m gratified to see that some legislatures are realizing what is appropriate for a cemetery on public land”
You mean Federal land, I hope. And I agree with that. States, local and private parties should do what they want. Lets face it, the South lost and even if it won in the 1860s, the North probably would have reinvaded later anyways. The North was also built-up largely on the backs of slaves and in general had only decided it was wrong when economics deemed it to be wrong. The South would have as well.
The average confederate solder was a pawn, didn’t own slaves and got caught up in a rich man’s war. As a southerner that is all that flag ever meant to me.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.