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Unseen wrote:

what do YOU mean by “objective morality”? Morality based on principles built into reality itself?

That’s what I mean.  It’s an illusion.

Unseen wrote:

Much of what we do isn’t even handled by the brain. It’s taken care of automatically by the autonomic nervous system. When you duck a flying object, it’s not even really a decision,…

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jakelafort wrote:

Thanks for that vid, Unseen. I was tempted to get his book. Not any longer. He comes across to me as a sophist. He said…free will is a biological phenomenon, not a physical one. Our parts don’t have free will. We do. Stop right there Mr. Dennet. Which aspect of biology produces this phenomenon? What is your proof? Why should we…

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Simon Paynton wrote:

“Objective morality” is a perception that does not correspond to what people who believe in it think it does. Does this have anything to do with free will?

Well, what do YOU mean by “objective morality”? Morality based on principles built into reality itself? Principles handed down by God? Principles deterministically der…[Read more]

Thanks for that vid, Unseen. I was tempted to get his book. Not any longer. He comes across to me as a sophist. He said…free will is a biological phenomenon, not a physical one. Our parts don’t have free will. We do. Stop right there Mr. Dennet. Which aspect of biology produces this phenomenon? What is your proof? Why should we make it…[Read more]

jakelafort wrote:

Unseen, gotta disagree with your take in relation to what would happen if the consensus changes with respect to free will. You said…We just go on acting as we have. To say we could do otherwise kind of implies the problem has been solved. It hasn’t. First, it seems highly improbable based on religiosity and marriage to che…

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Davis wrote:

Oh I have no doubt you believe there is no solution to a problem on an issue in which we lack even basic information on and one you refuse to inform yourself on opposing arguments. That’s why, while on most topics I totally respect your point of view (even when I may seriously disagree with it) on this one I can only shake my head a…

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Psychological perceptions may not match up with actual reality in the normal way, since psychology is shaped by evolutionary history.

“Objective morality” is a perception that does not correspond to what people who believe in it think it does.  Does this have anything to do with free will?

Presumably, free will consists of 1) conscious…[Read more]

Davis, that is a fair statement.

Simon, those last few sentences do not make sense to me.

It’s not necessarily true that the perception of free will is an illusion – rather, it’s a perception.  “Illusion” implies that it’s a false belief.

There are other things we perceive that are caused evolutionarily by reality – such as the belief in objective morality –  the belief – or perception – that one’s morals are objectively true, e…[Read more]

Unseen is right (though only with the added caveat of MAY) in that there may never be a solution and perhaps correct in that the solution is free will simply IS an illusion…they are both possibilities. Simon is correct in that the solution may come by finding the right conceptual framework. As Raymond Tallis (a noted neuroscience and…[Read more]

I would guess that the solution* lies in finding the right conceptual framework for reality, that incorporates both physical determinism and the human experience of free will within constraints.  Perhaps, the human experience of free will lies in a different conceptual domain than physical determinism, so it’s like comparing apples and…[Read more]

Oh I have no doubt you believe there is no solution to a problem on an issue in which we lack even basic information on and one you refuse to inform yourself on opposing arguments. That’s why, while on most topics I totally respect your point of view (even when I may seriously disagree with it) on this one I can only shake my head and laugh out…[Read more]

jakelafort wrote:

Unseen, gotta disagree with your take in relation to what would happen if the consensus changes with respect to free will. You said…We just go on acting as we have. To say we could do otherwise kind of implies the problem has been solved. It hasn’t.

Okay, let’s see.

First, it seems highly improbable based on religiosity and mar…

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Unseen, gotta disagree with your take in relation to what would happen if the consensus changes with respect to free will. You said…We just go on acting as we have. To say we could do otherwise kind of implies the problem has been solved. It hasn’t.

First, it seems highly improbable based on religiosity and marriage to cherished beliefs that t…[Read more]

jakelafort wrote:

Free will is the foundation of western jurisprudence. If the consensus ever changes so that free will is seen as illusory and strict determinism as reality then everything is turned on its head. How does law incorporate this most fundamental change in human perspective? Strict liability for heretofore criminal acts?

We just go…[Read more]

Deleted over formatting issue. See next post instead.

Ivy wrote:

I guess I don’t understand the complexity of the argument 😂. It’s not rocket science.

I doubt if science has much to contribute to a solution to the problem of free will. Rather, it provides most of the evidence against it, like the fact that your actions (the ones you are conscious of and believe to be free) were decided anywhere fro…[Read more]

Davis wrote:

Unseen you specifically said in the past any idea should be easily summarised in a couple sentences. When challenging you to do so (say summarise relativity or evolution into a few sentences so a layperson can reasonably understand it you were conveniently silent).

a) If you want to hunt that down and you actually think that I meant…[Read more]

Free will will probably end up being a probability function, like everything else. I could see there being a median brain reaction to a circumstantial set by population and even within an individual and a whole set of alternative reactions that tail off in probability. There is that wicked fast feedback system into our memory to search for…[Read more]