Abortion is the murder of innocent children

[UnseenParticipant]

That’s the position of the latest Republican to throw his hat in the ring. He’s not alone. A lot of  Americans feel the same.

If that view is wrong, prove it.

[PopeBeanieModerator]

I know of atheists and libertarians who err on the side of the “right to life”. I think the dialog should focus more on “right to personhood”. Everyone draws their line according to some arbitrary length of gestation. My gray line would prioritize some kind of measurement of consciousness in the brain, and felt “life experiences” which even I can’t define clearly.

I’ve believed for years that this was technically a state issue, while each state already has laws regarding “end of life” decisions. If it’s not clearly spelled out in the US Constitution, it’s up to each state. Perhaps, after political opportunists in each state get their campaign mileage out of the controversy, discussions in the population will evolve away from the clichéd right-to-choose vs right-to-life over-simplification of personal positions. While I fear that it won’t be safe for decades to make any reasonable, new federal laws.

Beyond laws, considering exactly when the thing growing in the womb gains the “right of personhood” is a philosophical more than a scientific question. Then there’s the right of the mother to consider. I know of a somewhat famous science-in-media woman, caring and loving in many ways, jokingly referring to the thing in her womb as “a parasite”. Gasp! But imo, it’s not a purely scientifically unreasonable characterization. (She delivered it as a baby as she had always intended.)

If nothing else makes sense in these decisions, I personally claim that they’re strictly personal and only relevant to close family, mother obviously making the final, arbitrary decision on the thing in her womb. Similar to many arbitrary end-of-life decisions when only close family, with mother or no mother should make their personal decisions if the patient is unable to. Once the thing is outside the womb and physically and mentally “activated”, imo it deserves the rights of “personhood” from the state. (Along with prenatal health care.)

Meanwhile, just focusing on proof of murder or homicide, by definition can only be informed by current state or federal laws. And future medical technology that could make it possible to create embryos from stem cells plus sperm could further complicate perceptions among “interested parties”, and law enforcement.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Pope says…Everyone draws their line according to some arbitrary length of gestation.

Now how i see it. Roe’s rationale was that a person is capable of sustaining life outside the womb. Ya know closer to an oak tree than a nut.

Abortion is a distortion contortion super itchy icky issue.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

@popebeanie – My gray line would prioritize some kind of measurement of consciousness in the brain, and felt “life experiences” which even I can’t define clearly.

I posted an article in the latest Sunday School that discusses this point. Here you go.

 

[PopeBeanieModerator]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

I posted an article in the latest Sunday School that discusses this point.

Thanks, good article and it points to other good articles. I should revisit our Consciousness group and add some Big Think there. (Ugh, it looks like a lot of my writing there is way too wordy and needs heavy editing.)

Anyway, contrary to my suggestion to consider the depth or kind of consciousness a fetus might experience, I should have limited consideration to its potential feelings of pain during an abortion. It’s definitely not going to be saying to itself “OMG, even before I take my first breath!? I was planning to become a Liberal!”.

[UnseenParticipant]

One has to be careful with one’s definitions. The pro-lifers are worried (or so they say) about “post-birth abortions.” And don’t think this is a moot topic. This article appeared in a journal of medical ethics, so the topic is actually being discussed outside the paranoid fringe of antiabortion yahoos:

After-birth abortion: why should the baby live?

Abstract
Abortion is largely accepted even for reasons that do not have anything to do with the fetus’ health. By showing that (1) both fetuses and newborns do not have the same moral status as actual persons, (2) the fact that both are potential persons is morally irrelevant and (3) adoption is not always in the best interest of actual people, the authors argue that what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled. 

There is so much to talk about in just that one paragraph that it boggles the mind.

[PopeBeanieModerator]

Well yeah, when in ancient Rome…

But seriously, the reasoning I proposed doesn’t have any fine lines… technically after the baby’s born, how is it suddenly different as a “person”.

BTW ChatGPT tells me infanticide isn’t legal anywhere in the world, but google pointed me to wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide#Modern_times

You’re welcome everybody, have loads of fun now on this topic.

I might be done here now. We’ll see. For the record, I couldn’t stomach infanticide, and it should remain illegal. I’d also really hate to see a third trimester fetus die… but my arbitrary line is still drawn at it being the mother’s decision until birth, by law, as much as I hate that idea of such a late abortion. I’d be really pissed and disturbed if it were my wife. At some point one’s human nature firmly draws the line.

[UnseenParticipant]

PopeBeanie wrote:

I might be done here now. We’ll see. For the record, I couldn’t stomach infanticide, and it should remain illegal.

That would include, say, a baby born without a brain?

[PopeBeanieModerator]

Frack. No brain, no pain; no feelings, no soul, no goal, no go. Harvest organs then BBQ the rest. Or sell it on a Chinese wet market.

Unless the mother says otherwise. But no public health care for it, except maybe in Florida. And (by the way), BLAME GOD for it.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Nicely jibber jabbered Pope. Jabberwocky talky.

But seriously, the reasoning I proposed doesn’t have any fine lines… technically after the baby’s born, how is it suddenly different as a “person”.

Like i said closer to a person than an acorn. Any indicia of personhood. Being dependent for everything through US b port or biological fittings is the acorn.

Chimps get Spartan about infanticide also. I’ve seen it with cats too. It was sickening.

“At some point one’s human nature firmly draws the line.”

Man i wish there were some biological compass. I just don’t see any at least with the overwhelming numbers of people. Dote on and fret for welfare of your cat or dog while you rip into a steak and eat it with gusto. Reverse shit and make livestock our pets and we would be ripping into cat and dog meat. Some do eat dogs and horses and some Asian restaurants are reputed to serve the finest feline.

Watch or participate in a lynching then come home and be tender towards your family.

Beat living hell out of slave for looking at your daughter and then your descendants protest the least insidious and sometimes nonexistent form of discrimination.

What is our nature if not protean and malleable? A Modest Proposal is not so far off from realistic.

[UnseenParticipant]

@jake

I watched an OK Netflix movie the other day, The Mother starring Jennifer Lopez. It’s about an ex-special forces operative (JL) who winds up in the underworld of illegal arms dealing. She turns on her boss in the gang when she discovers he’s also doing human trafficking. She turns him in and he does time. When he gets out, he kidnaps the daughter she gave away to try to protect her from being used as a bagaining chip so he could get JL back to exact revenge. The girl is spirited away into a foster family far away.

However, Mr. Bad Guy manages to figure out where the daughter is and kidnaps her, sure that JL will be drawn out of her own new identity to save the 12 year old. She does, and manages to steal her daughter back but can’t safely return her to her new family, so she takes her to a hideaway deep in the Alaskan forest.

She tries teaching the city girl how to survive and one day while out they spot a deer and as JL raises her rifle, the girl says “Don’t shoot Bambie’s mommy!” JL explains, “It’s a buck, so if anything it’s Bambie’s daddy.”

Later on, offered a meal of rabbit, the girl says she doesn’t want to eat Thumper. So, JL explains that (I am forced to paraphrase) “Whatever you eat involves pain, suffering, or death to something. Even when you go to plant a field, you are killing moles and mice and forcing creatures out of their habitat and taking away their livelihood. When you drink milk or eat cheese, the milk comes from cattle who are kept permanently pregnant and are attached to machines. Every single thing you eat, every single thing you do to survive, comes at the expense of some other creature. This is how nature works.”

I love cats. I have one right now who’s the next best thing to a life partner. I will do whatever is within my power practically or (of far greater concern) financially to keep her comfortable and alive. I actually love the little critter, but someday I may have to make the decision I dread.

I don’t feel the same way about feral cats. If they can be controlled without killing them through, for example, neutering them and letting them go, okay. They will help control vermin. If that doesn’t work, killing them as humanely as possible is next on the list.

Wild cats of all types and sizes are a different matter. As far as they are concerned we are the invasive species. Trying to help them survive by not interfering with them is a duty as far as I’m concerned.

My point is this: If a perfect world is one where there is no suffering or pointless death, then a perfect world is impossible. Those who want to establish one are either on a fool’s errand or are attempting to form some sort of dictatorship.

Establishing where life starts is and always will be someone’s definition which differs from the one someone else holds. Because of this, the abortion question will always be with us. And should, because a society where it’s no longer an open question has become brain dead.

[PopeBeanieModerator]

jakelafort wrote:

Nicely jibber jabbered Pope. Jabberwocky talky.

Thanks, I’m learning from the bestest of the jestest!

(Full disclosure, ChatGPT helped me cheat on creativity for this post. Here’s to wishing you your quests’ bests.)

Speaking of which, I asked it to paraphrase a few of Unseen’s paragraphs as poetry. (At first, because I’m incompetently messing with primal forces of time and space in this thread, I thought the paragraphs were from Jake. Sorry y’all.)

In the dusk of a later hour, she balks at rabbit’s power,
Declares she won’t consume dear Thumper, to JL’s offered meal, a clumper.
With wisdom, he explains her error, even plants know life’s terror.
In fields where seedlings sprout anew, a rodent’s life is bid adieu.
Each glass of milk, each cheese delight, is a cow’s unending fight,
Bound to machines, their calves unborn, their milked existence worn and torn.
Our sustenance, our very breath, are bought with other creatures’ death,
For nature, in her cruel grace, demands all life must find its place.

A feline friend, I hold so dear, her purrs bring comfort, her presence, cheer.
In my life, she plays her part, next best to a partner’s heart.
For her wellbeing, my coins I’d spend, I’ll love her truly, till the end.
Her little paws, her soft fur sheen, the loss of her, a dreadful scene.

Yet feral cats, they do not share, this bond of love, this heartfelt care.
If their wildness could be stilled, by gentle means, and not be killed,
Let them roam, their freedom tasted, in chase of vermin, not time wasted.
But if gentle means fall short, a last resort we must support.
With humane grace and sorrow’s kiss, they’ll meet their end in the abyss.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Unseen, i noticed that movie but have not watched it. Jlo is not a great actress. Reminds me of Tom C. They both get roles cuz of their looks. Not awful actors but not great.

Yes pain and suffering and part and parcel. Does not mean we can’t be better. Our neuroplasticity can be manipulated to make us behave and believe ANYTHING. Am not sure i am even exaggerating. That is how fucked we humans are. We could kill two or three birds with one stone and better the planet, slow climate change and simply let livestock live out their lives in peace without reproducing. We could as a better substitute have nothing but lab grown meat, (also plant based meat which is coming along nicely) and control kind and percentage of fat, leave out the hormones and antibiotics.

If you really think about it ya realize that it is the microcosm of geocentric Christianity. Our regard for other living creatures, both human and non, colors our perception and feelings. Xenophobia is an obvious manifestation of the aforementioned. You can fall in love with a cat or dog or any animal. Or you can regard as vermin or a nuissance to be exterminated. It is arbitrary and capricious. Well not really arbitrary. It is how do I FEEL about that person or animal. Always having gone to a grocery store and witnessed nicely packaged meat you have a disconnect and think too much marbling or too much per lb or that one looks just right. Just like age of slavery in which it was just done and few questioned the justification for doing it. And i don’t mean to come across as a holier than thou…took me a long time to change my ways. I love taste of meat but i dumped it entirely.

[PopeBeanieModerator]

Jake, Unseen, with moderator powers, I cheated and updated a previous post I addressed to Jake before I saw it should have been addressed to you.

I’ll delete this late edited, distracting post unless someone objects.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by  PopeBeanie. Reason: i partly corrected my mess of late edits

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

I watched that movie during the week. It had the potential to be good but if you don’t watch it you will have missed nothing.  It was just too long.

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