Atheists are angry and bitter because they have divorced from God

[UnseenParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

If God exists, then He just wants you to be a good person.

Wrong. Since Christianity is built on a medieval model involving kings, lords, and serfs, clearly God just wants you to be a good and obedient serf who inflates his God’s ego through neverending praise. Otherwise, you go to Hell and spend eternity in agony.

[toddayoungParticipant]

I agree Simon Paynton. I thought I was the only one who felt this way.

[PopeBeanieModerator]

Ninety-nine percent of educated humans can probably agree that gods have been invented by humans. There’s still that percent of humans who just won’t let go of traditional beliefs, always yearning for that omnipotent father who sees and knows all, and is the ultimate, unerring judge in life. Marriages to God include comforting ceremonies and public “proof” of sharing a common faith, validation of connection and belonging to an in-group, and a feeling of fatherly protection (and enforcement of order).

Secure families do not “marry” their kids before they come of age, but most religious families try to do just that. Of course “divorces” from God can make people angry! Some atheists have that experience, but I believe most do not, especially those who were never forced to marry to start with.

Peter van Inwagen was just projecting, as many pious preachers do, often even intentionally invalidating the perspectives of outsiders. Unfortunately it draws on and relies on built-in tribalistic behavior, i.e. a need to define and identify with an in-group, vs an out-group. One might/could say our modernized, post-genetic-evolution expression of tribal behavior derives (culturally) from a specific kind of “original sin”.

They’re just making this shit up, to suit themselves!

[DavisModerator]

Ninety-nine percent of educated humans can probably agree that gods have been invented by humans.

Woah. Where on Earth did you pull that figure from? Source? It pretty much goes against what even the most liberal minded and highly educated friends of mine in every non-western country would ever say. It also goes against the surveys of university educated Americans say and even against what American Professors say. Yikes. Any evidence to back that up?

Marriages to God include comforting ceremonies and public “proof” of sharing a common faith, validation of connection and belonging to an in-group, and a feeling of fatherly protection (and enforcement of order).

Something that can be achieved by many other means including means far far far less toxic. It is interesting how when we cover things like cults we speak of the benefits some people enjoy, sense of belonging etc and yet we also discuss they highly sinister and cruel effects as well. Yet, and this is VERY important…I’ve never heard anyone say “yeah…but we shouldn’t forget the positive effects of being in a cult”. The conversations of “how is it possible that an intelligent person got caught up in this” and the answer is, because of the needs that the cult “temporarily” provided. And yet, when it comes to the Abrahamic religions, all cults with a long history and potential of future abuse…you still hear a LOT of people saying “but hey…religion provides what they need”. That was the same with cults which fell apart, small and large. The same with Scientology. The only difference now is (apart from a few benign protestant faiths), is that Christianity is normalized and the other two faiths are difficult to criticize for a number of reasons. However if they were held under the same microscope as cults, we wouldn’t be sweet talking the social benefits because we’d be properly and honestly contrasting them with the toxic ones. As we do with cults. And we’d point out there are many ways to get the benefits of religion with a whole lot less of the toxic and dangerous.

 

 

[PopeBeanieModerator]

Davis wrote:

Woah. Where on Earth did you pull that figure from? Source?

OK, I pulled that number out of my pope ass… it’s ball park. An expression, even. But doesn’t just about everyone, even non-educated people, know about at least a few of the ancient gods in myth, gods that people actually used to believe in? More to the point, how about “all the gods that religionists don’t believe in”, and of which they should easily be able to admit the simple fact that humans invent gods.

Waaaaitasec… American Professor surveys?! Where? 🙂

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

Why did God divorce me? Why is it that the human is always to blame? How about taking some responsibility here? Any chance you will show up at the mediation so we can work this out?  What? Still nothing to say for yourself? And you think you can keep 100% and I walk away with nothing at the end? You saw this coming and refused to do anything about it. So selfish and jealous. You hang out with your angels all day long and go crazy because I looked at Baal for a mere second. You and your “Oh come worship me as I am the greatest thing you can even conceive of” routine. And you had a child with “her” and expect me to just pretend nothing happened? Sadist.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by  Reg the Fronkey Farmer. Reason: God made me make a mistake

[PopeBeanieModerator]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

And you had a child with “her” and expect me to just pretend nothing happened? Sadist.

Jesus, what a soap opera!

[Daniel W.Participant]

Apologists try to come up with all sorts of things about atheists.  The old canard about bitter atheists who are angy at god, is as old as the hills.  I’m not angry with any of the many, many gods, including the one that christians and jews claim is the only one.  It’s like being mad at a cartoon or fiction character.  It’s fiction, so nothing to be mad at.

As someone said, however, if it turned out there is a god, he has a lot of explaining to do.

@toddayoung, Im sorry to hear about your cancer diagnosis.  Six year ago I was diagnosed with sarcoma, which has been treated by surgery and the same drug (gleevec) that works for CLL – chronic myelogenous leukemia.  I don’t know if that’s what you have but if you do, the drug is tolerable. Sometimes challenging, but tolerable.  Ive taken it for 6 years with no recurrence.  It’s not always easy, but you can do it.  As for other types of leukemia  I hope you have one that is very treatable.  A lot of them are.  Science.  Medicine.  Prayer does not work.  Science and medicine keep me alive and, I hope, you too.

 

• This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by  Daniel W..

[toddayoungParticipant]

Well I am still here & confused by the things taught to us as children & now I am a senior citizen. Shocked at the Me or Millennial generation. Never have I seen such rude & cruel children. I was at a event & those Guys of this generation wandering around in packs. Looking at cell or ipad? Walked into ladies & the language offended me. How do Females pick a mate any more? I tried the Gods way & Mans way. Now in the middle of a difference of opinion as to how I should live? I listen to God & The Doctors. I took the medicine for Chemo. Dasatinib 100 mg a day for 90 days. The last 3 blood test are with in normal limits. So after a week of nose bleeds & seeing my Primary Doctor. I stopped the Sprycel. She is in agreement with 2 other Doctors. I have a underlying condition that should have been treated before starting Chemo. I still am worried about what is going on in my body. I pray. Not sure if anybody is listening. I lost my faith in any thing or God. I am not sure if this is another trial of, “The Lord God works in mysterious ways?” Seems like I always get good or bad in threes? I give. That is were I found Atheists are more in line with what I am feeling. Wish me luck at next Hematology appointment. Or am I just going to suffer the Cancer & Die? Will the virgins be waiting for me? Will I get judged? Or is the bright light the last Fireworks before your life end & no soul to live for eternity? I just want to see my Mom RIP again. I am sure she knows that what has happened after her suspicious (to me) death. I am just not sure if life is worth living? The end is near & a congressional commity will decide if the end of life as we know it, Collusion with a planet killer or a Mouse that Roared. Kill us all off? Global warming seems to be doing just fine killing off Earthlings.

[DavisModerator]

Simon Paynton wrote:

What do you think of this quote? I was unable to find any wider context, except that Peter van Inwagen is a “prominent Christian philosopher”. It’s from the Reasonable Faith Facebook page.

When two people divorce, one or both of them is often angry and bitter. And the creature who divorces his creator can be the angriest and most bitter of all. –Peter van Inwagen

Then God must be outrageously angry and bitter over millions of divorces. Poor guy. All he wants to do is force everyone to love him or else.

[Glen DParticipant]

I’m new, so please don’t yell if  this thread wasn’t to be continued.

“When two people divorce, one or both of them is often angry and bitter.  And the creature who divorces his creator can be the angriest and most bitter of all.

–Peter van Inwagen”

 

Pretty much par for the course from a simplistic apologist. I seldom argue with such people because  every one I’ve run across has been impervious to facts and reason. Religious belief is based on faith; “belief in that which is unseen”,or for the atheist, “woo”.

I’m an agnostic atheist. That means I do not believe in gods, the soul, angels, demons, the paranormal, mountain trolls, dragons or fairies and the bottom of my garden. Reason: lack of proof. I make no claims, so need prove nothing.

Unfortunately for the believer, the existence of god is unfalsifiable; IE can be neither proved nor disproved.

Of course I live to be patronised by some happy clapper who knows far more about me and my beliefs than I do myself.

The best reasoned argument for the existence of god I’ve heard comes from Frederick Copleston SJ in the famous 1948 radio debate with Bertrand  Russell.  Copleston argues from contingency ,and is not convincing. I mention this debate, because Copleston was a brilliant philosopher and his best didn’t cut it. (The debate is available in par or in full on You tube)

 

 

 

 

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Glen D wrote:

Copleston argues from contingency ,and is not convincing.

What is his argument, Glen?  That sounds a bit vague.

[Glen DParticipant]

Perhaps listen to the edited version (18 minutes) on Youtube .

I’m a pretty weak philosopher, so a clever sophist can flatten me.

Below is a summary of the contingency argument for the existence of God:

 

If something exists, there must exist what it takes for that thing to exist.
The universe—the collection of beings in space and time—exists.
Therefore, there must exist what it takes for the universe to exist.
What it takes for the universe to exist cannot exist within the universe or be bounded by space and time.
Therefore, what it takes for the universe to exist must transcend both space and time. I only had a year of philosophy at university.

The link is  a response  to that argument. (click on the photo)

The Contingency Argument for God

I read it because I’m interested. However, my base position is that god  cannot be argued into or out of existence.

 

Philosophical arguments based on logic are great mental exercise. However, logic does not guarantee truth. A logically sound argument is true IF AND ONLY IF the premise is true. As withy metaphysical questions generally, the existence of god is unfalsifiable. IE it cannot be proved or disproved . Well, at least so far in recorded history.

 

Youtube: (edited version)

 

• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by  Glen D.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

So they’re saying that something that exists has a cause or causes outside of that thing.  It’s a big leap to say that the cause is God.  But like you say, it can’t be proved either way.

[PopeBeanieModerator]

It’s turtles all the way down, and God all the way up.

[Author]

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