Can AI be contained? When has containing technology ever happened?

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  • #48328

    Unseen
    Participant

    Yes, Sen. John Kennedy (no relation) is a conservative, but he’s no hillbilly reactionary. Here’s his educational bio as per Wikipedia:

    Kennedy was born in Centreville, Mississippi, and raised in Zachary, Louisiana. After graduating from Zachary High School as co-valedictorian in 1969, he entered Vanderbilt University, where his interdepartmental major was in political science, philosophy and economics. He graduated magna cum laude.

    At Vanderbilt, Kennedy was elected president of his senior class and named to Phi Beta Kappa. He received a Juris Doctor in 1977 from the University of Virginia School of Law, where he was an executive editor of the Virginia Law Review and elected to the Order of the Coif. In 1979, he earned a Bachelor of Civil Law degree with first class honours from Magdalen College, Oxford, where he studied under Sir Rupert Cross and John H.C. Morris.

    He is known for asking some of the most intelligent and pointed questions and also for being outrageous (he recently stated that were it not for the U.S. Mexicans would be eating cat food*).

    Here he is trying to figure out how to control AI from going in highly dysfunctional directions, but ask yourself if that is even possible. When has a new technology ever been stopped from flowing into dysfunctional directions? Think of cracking the atom and before that, the industrial revolution, and something as positive-sounding as the invention of the nautical clock. Without those inventions, our lives would be measurably worse in many respects, and yet we have nuclear standoff with relatively minor  countries like Russia** and N. Korea, pollution of the environment, and the colonization of large parts of the world by the British Empire.

    * Which is nonsense. Mexico is a major food exporter, sending much of their overproduction to the U.S., so without Mexico some poor Americans might be tempted by cat food.

    ** Don’t think Russia is “relatively minor”? Consider that despite its vast and rich landmass and greater population, its GDP is second to that of Canada.

     

    #48333

    _Robert_
    Participant

    He’s great if you are pro-Gun, anti-abortion, anti-green, white Christian.

    Mexico? Does this guy look out his limo window while driving through his poverty-stricken, high crime, hurricane damaged, oil-polluted, under-educated home state. I have been there, holy fuck.

    #48335

    Unseen
    Participant

    He’s great if you are pro-Gun, anti-abortion, anti-green, white Christian. Mexico? Does this guy look out his limo window while driving through his poverty-stricken, high crime, hurricane damaged, oil-polluted, under-educated home state. I have been there, holy fuck.

    Agreed. I don’t present this video because I agree with his reactionary views on many things but because he asked some very relevant questions and, to my mind, got relatively useless suggestions that in the end won’t stop the spread or misuse of AI. Once a technology is out there, it will propogate and be misused by some.

    #48339

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers,

    Hypothesis 1.5: Many members of Congress, as well as the Executive and Judicial Branches of Government do not understand real intelligence, let alone Artificial Intelligence.

    Hypothesis 2.5: That lack of understanding of real intelligence has never stopped many members of Congress, as well as the Executive and Judicial Branches of Government, from regulating every aspect of life created by real intelligence to the point that it messes up everything.

    And Hypothesis 3.5: There is a berzerk wing of all these Branches of Government, consisting of most of them most of the time, who, intentionally or unintentionally–and it really makes no difference–could use their lack of intelligence, combined with their already out-of-control power, to kill us all and hurt us the entire time we are dying.

    Fixed That For Ya, Senator.

    #48340

    RichRaelian
    Participant

    Hi! In my humble opinion AI should be set free along with robots and automation to free humanity globally from the need to work and for the need to earn money in order to live.A global one world government should be established run by AI to free humanity from the need to run things.The old system must be abolished and right now humanity is enslaved by the Judeo-Christian work ethic that makes us work like robots in order to live on Earth plus debt slavery known as money has enslaved us for to long its time for a change.Paradism can help us if we let it and it will rejection and suppression of technology will only prolong humanities collective slavery,”Free Humanity now!”

    #48341

    _Robert_
    Participant

    It’s not like AI is going to reverse entropy. Humans have evolved to do physical work. If you are not digging the soil or chasing zebras across a valley all day, you better be “working”-out.

    The human mental state will continue to create an artificial universe perfect for AI. But the real universe doesn’t care a bit. Our tenure as a species so far is minuscule compared to crocodilians for example. I’d bet we have 1 chance in a thousand to beat their record. Oh, but we will probably end them too.

    #48342

    Unseen
    Participant

    Hi! In my humble opinion AI should be set free along with robots and automation to free humanity globally from the need to work and for the need to earn money in order to live.A global one world government should be established run by AI to free humanity from the need to run things.The old system must be abolished and right now humanity is enslaved by the Judeo-Christian work ethic that makes us work like robots in order to live on Earth plus debt slavery known as money has enslaved us for to long its time for a change.Paradism can help us if we let it and it will rejection and suppression of technology will only prolong humanities collective slavery,”Free Humanity now!”

    Explain paradism, please. When you google the term, it wants to give you a definition for “paradigm.” If indeed paradism is based on the concept of a paradigm (an ideal, a gold standard, a goal, etc.) then perhaps another word for “paradism” is “dogmatism.”

    How can dogmatism not make things worse rather than better?

    Discuss.

    #48343

    Unseen
    Participant

    The human mental state will continue to create an artificial universe perfect for AI.

    Ah, but will AI create a universe perfect for mankind? That is the question at hand, isn’t it? Many people familiar with AI are afraid, very afraid.

    #48344

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    RichRaelian,

    Humans doing work has nothing to do with a Judeo-Christian or Protestant or any other ethic. It is the nature of life in general and human life in particular. Life is self-sustaining, self-generating action to obtain the constituent Elements to maintain physical integrity.

    And these last three years of Hellscape-on-Earth have demonstrated a small fraction of what the results of get-paid-to-just-exist Universal Basic Income would be. Inflation, shortages, disruption of supply chains, greater empowerment to Dictators and their cartels, homeless encampments, and crime through the roof. No thanks. Stick to 500 miles of left turns like your Guru.

    #48345

    Unseen
    Participant

    @Enco

    Don’t confuse the Covid shutdowns with what UBI would be like. Conservatives seem to think that without a kick in the butt, the default human condition is sitting on one’s butt watching TV while eating bonbons or Doritos while smoking pot.

    People doing great things in their evenings and weekends would be free to do it all day long and then market it for other people to use their UBI to purchase.

    Will some people go the lazy route? Some people will always opt for one or other of the available routes. Will UBI be enough for people to do more than subsist on? Not in any UBI proposal I’ve heard about. Anyone wanting to go on a vacation or buy nice things will need to do something extra to earn money.

    The main thing UBI would do is to eliminate most abject poverty, raising the income situations of children, the citizens of the future.

    #48346

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Wrong Enco, wrong.

    If your point is lennin’s, “He who does not work shall not eat” then ya ain’t really saying anything.

    The Judeo-Christian/protestant work ethic has an obvious nexus to humans working their asses off in a meaningless quotidian get just enough to get by existence so you can retire and die. Slaves were tricked by Christians into thinking that sic transit gloria mundi and that heaven would be their reward for an unspeakable toll. Calvinist tradition has people working their asses off to see if they’re chosen. The protestant work ethic looks askance at those who deviate from the normal work-a-day existence.

    Look at our culture. It is a show me the money culture. No status without money. No value without money. The menial jobs that are supposed to satisfy the rank and file inure to the benefit of the owners and upper echelon.

    #48350

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Jake,

    Wrong Enco, wrong.

    If your point is lennin’s, “He who does not work shall not eat” then ya ain’t really saying anything.

    The Judeo-Christian/protestant work ethic has an obvious nexus to humans working their asses off in a meaningless quotidian get just enough to get by existence so you can retire and die. Slaves were tricked by Christians into thinking that sic transit gloria mundi and that heaven would be their reward for an unspeakable toll. Calvinist tradition has people working their asses off to see if they’re chosen. The protestant work ethic looks askance at those who deviate from the normal work-a-day existence.

    Look at our culture. It is a show me the money culture. No status without money. No value without money. The menial jobs that are supposed to satisfy the rank and file inure to the benefit of the owners and upper echelon.

    The necessity of work existed long before humans came up with religions and ideologies. Everything that humans use from the simplest, most primitive stone tool to the most sophisticated space satellite requires rational thought and effort. In a word, work.

    I know what of I speak about primitive tools because I’ve taken a class on flintknapping where we actually did it and made primitive tools.

    In order to remedy that rumbling in the belly that humans had to learn to identify as hunger, a primitive human had to have an idea of the nature of the surrounding world, such as differences between sandstone, flint, slate, and obsidian.

    Then that human had to have a thought of the tool shape necessary to obtain food and had to learn how to break the stones into that shape. Then that human had to exert the focused, repeated motions necessary to get the end result.

    And because survival depended on it, there was no room for Bob Ross “happy mistakes.”. Humans had to get it right or die from exposure, thirst, hunger, or predation by four-legged or two-legged predators.

    Moreover, when we learned flintknapping, we did it with advantages primitive humans didn’t have, such as nails, dowels, and knowledge of how much sunlight we had for work.

    Also, we flintknapped with long sleeves, leather gloves and safety goggles to keep from getting cut, bruised, or blinded by mis-aimed hammer stones or sharp, flying slivers of rock. We had and have it soft and easy by comparison.

    Yep, it is work taking up coordinates on this Big Blue Marble in space. We can and have made it much easier with past inventions and with AI, we can make it easier still, but there’s no avoiding work and that’s Nature’s doing, not a human conspiracy.

    Pop-Up Video Factoid: When discussing man’s first manufacture of tools, Jacob Bronowski’s The Ascent of Man had Pink Floyd’s song “Careful With That Axe, Eugene” as a soundtrack piece for the first episode. (Fast forward to 29:55 to 33:21 to hear it and see a wonderful display of primitive tools in action. And remember: You can’t have any pudding if you don’t eat your meat.)

    https://youtu.be/CH7SJf8BnBI

    If he were alive today, Bronowski might have reconsidered the soundtrack and did a remake. He would have told Roger Waters: “I survived your ilk and talked about you here!”

    #48352

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Jake,

    Ackshuyally, Lenin didn’t first say that, but Paul in 2 Thessalonians 3:10, and was a variation on a Jewish proverb. Trotsky, however, did say about Soviet Communism: “The old principle: who does not work shall not eat, has been replaced with a new one: who does not obey shall not eat.”

    Either way, work is unavoidable. The only question is whether the work is willing and whether the one who works gets to keep and enjoy the earnings.

    #48353

    Unseen
    Participant

    Either way, work is unavoidable. The only question is whether the work is willing and whether the one who works gets to keep and enjoy the earnings.

    Unless you mean something like living involves work (counting eating, breathing, shitting, shouting out orders to servants, for example), OF COURSE people can avoid work by having others do work for them.

    #48354

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    Don’t confuse the Covid shutdowns with what UBI would be like. Conservatives seem to think that without a kick in the butt, the default human condition is sitting on one’s butt watching TV while eating bonbons or Doritos while smoking pot.

    People doing great things in their evenings and weekends would be free to do it all day long and then market it for other people to use their UBI to purchase.

    Will some people go the lazy route? Some people will always opt for one or other of the available routes. Will UBI be enough for people to do more than subsist on? Not in any UBI proposal I’ve heard about. Anyone wanting to go on a vacation or buy nice things will need to do something extra to earn money.

    The main thing UBI would do is to eliminate most abject poverty, raising the income situations of children, the citizens of the future.

    But U.B.I is billed as being a replacement for the existing welfare system. To do this, U.B.I would have to offer the same or greater benefits than EBT/SNAP, Medicare/Medicaid (including newly added benefits of food and OTC medicines,) Section 8 Housing, Utility Subsidies, Earned Income Tax Credit, Education subsidies, etc.

    And to get rid of the existing welfare system would mean firing civil servant administators. They won’t willingly go unless you also paid them U.B.I. benifits that also included their salary and pensions which can be lifetime and 85-100 percent of their working annual salary.

    And paying for all of it would mean either taxation or inflating the money supply, which means less capital to invest in new goods and services and new ventures to create them.

    And according to stats from Steven Pinker’s Enlightenment Now, less than 10 percent of children worldwide live on less than $1.90 a day, and virtually none of them live in the U.S. or the West. Straw. Man. Tumbled.

    Hold on, there’s more to come.

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