Chelsea says "I coulda been the champion."

[UnseenParticipant]

@ Davis

Having looked at the article you referenced, it even notes the unfortunately small size of the samples. I can’t use a study like that to gainsay the experience Chelsea is having. She’s not talking about one day or one race but a trend she can’t fight.

One thing that needs to be addressed is the fact that “trans woman” covers a lot of territory ranging from those who’ve gone the whole way with removal of their male organs and compensatory hormone therapy to “women” who are little more than crossdressers and everything in between. I don’t think it can be denied that individuals in the latter category are, for the purposes of sport, still male.

[UnseenParticipant]

jakelafort wrote:

So if a man transitions to become a female that person has an advantage competing in sports against women?

Yes. Should i care?

That’s a good question. To a naturally-born female from a disadvantaged family who  wants to finance her education through a sports scholarship, she will care. As will any family with a sports-talented child who could be spared the expense of providing her with a better chance at life through an education they can’t afford to give her.

Beyond that, do too many Americans waste valuable time and energy following the big business of pro sports? I think the answer is obvious.

[jakelafortParticipant]

No doubt it is an issue to those who are impacted but beyond that is an anti-lefty in your face issue. It is so insignificant in the scheme of things. Of course i have far less sympathy and far more antipathy for the progressives…

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

jakelafort wrote:

No doubt it is an issue to those who are impacted but beyond that is an anti-lefty in your face issue. It is so insignificant in the scheme of things. Of course i have far less sympathy and far more antipathy for the progressives…

Yes, but each person is a whole world, and each person’s concerns matter.  So, even if the number impacted may or may not be small, it still matters.  People could use the same argument against trans people: their numbers are small, so why care?

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

jakelafort wrote:

Only thing i am aware in which women are perhaps on an equal footing is ultra marathon, the ultimate physical contest.

Women are statistically better at endurance sports than men.

Prehistoric Women Were Also Hunters

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

jakelafort wrote:

Think about how many feel bad about their appearance and get implants or rhinoplasty or some alteration of their body in an effort to look the way they hope to look. Are they searching for their actual identity or succumbing to societal pressure to look a certain way? I can only imagine how it feels to KNOW you are male or female and trapped in the wrong body. And as a consequence you do what is necessary to transition. And when you go through with it you KNOW how eyes will be upon you and judgment will rain down. And you will never be treated the same as you were when you were known as a boy or girl. Takes chutzpah. When a group that heretofore was denied and discriminated against finally gets legal recognition or attains a place of greater prominance there will be a mighty backlash.

All of that is true in my opinion.  But we can’t just let someone win all the time in sports because we feel sorry for them.  That’s not what sports is all about.  It’s not even fair to trans people.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Simon says: All of that is true in my opinion. But we can’t just let someone win all the time in sports because we feel sorry for them. That’s not what sports is all about. It’s not even fair to trans people.

How prevalent is it? We let shit go that is unfair in so many ways that i can’t muster faux concern for this shit.

Simon says: Women are statistically better at endurance sports than men

I saw that article. Also i indicated that women are super duper ultra marathoners…the ultimate physical or endurance test

Simon says: Yes, but each person is a whole world, and each person’s concerns matter. So, even if the number impacted may or may not be small, it still matters. People could use the same argument against trans people: their numbers are small, so why care?

I am not denying it is an issue. Only asserting that it is major minor and the notoriety is receives is BS. People could use that argument but it would be a bad argument. An oppressed minority is not something we ought to shuffle our feet and guffaw. The dynamic is different and therefore our concern ought to follow suit.

[UnseenParticipant]

@ Simon

Many assume that in ancient hunter-gatherer societies, men were the hunters and women were the gatherers. A new study reveals otherwise. Women were prominent hunters in prehistoric times. Historically, women’s roles have been skewed and diminished. Contemporary images of early humans show men with spears and women holding babies or picking crops.

I remember reading piece about somewhere in Pacifica where the women did most of the fishing, and the explanation given was that it was still a patriarchical society. It’s just that the men assigned the women to fish so that they could loll about in a hammock munching on tropical fruit and drinking coconut milk. And woe betide the women should they return with less than a good catch.

I read that…or maybe I’m imagining I read it. LOL Either way, it seems about as good an explanation as any.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

I remember reading piece about somewhere in Pacifica where the women did most of the fishing, and the explanation given was that it was still a patriarchical society. It’s just that the men assigned the women to fish so that they could loll about in a hammock munching on tropical fruit and drinking coconut milk. And woe betide the women should they return with less than a good catch.

From what I’ve read, that’s true.  Even in relatively un-patriarchal and egalitarian societies, women are usually excluded from hunting.  In other societies, it probably depends on the kind of hunting that is available.  If there is only “brute strength” hunting, like using blow-pipes in a forest, it makes sense for the men to do it mainly.  But even then, in a fully egalitarian society, women are freely allowed to try their hand.

Patriarchy brings with it a strong division of labour – keeping women “in their place”, doing the crappy un-glamorous work.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

women “in their place”, doing the crappy un-glamorous work.

Although I recognise that’s a gross generalisation.

[PopeBeanieModerator]

Maybe trans men and women could compete in their own category someday, even in (say) the Olympics. It might be interesting to see how trans men and trans women would feel about competing with each other, instead of (or in addition to) just competing with their own assigned gender-mates. It might be one way to discover whether or not the genes matter more than the gender changes.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

PopeBeanie,

Maybe trans men and women could compete in their own category someday, even in (say) the Olympics.

They could have their own Olympics today. GoFundMe and empty, unused venues (like houses of worship) begging to be rented or sold are wonderful things.

[UnseenParticipant]

PopeBeanie wrote:

It might be interesting to see how trans men and trans women would feel about competing with each other…

Good suggestion. It would soon become clear by comparing times between the body-modded and unmodeds whether the division made any sense and would put the controversy to bed finally for any fair-minded folks.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

It would soon become clear by comparing times between the body-modded and unmodeds whether the division made any sense and would put the controversy to bed finally for any fair-minded folks.

I’m not sure it makes logical sense.

[UnseenParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Unseen wrote:

It would soon become clear by comparing times between the body-modded and unmodeds whether the division made any sense and would put the controversy to bed finally for any fair-minded folks.

I’m not sure it makes logical sense.

If times are comparable such that the trans team wasn’t showing a  tendency of achieving better scores on average than their born physically female counterparts, the distinction would be proven bogus and unjustified and could be abandoned.

I find that logical. You don’t?

• This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by  Unseen.

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