Fly the flag of the Confederate States of America?

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This topic contains 61 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  SteveInCO 8 years, 9 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 62 total)
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  • #280

    DrBob
    Participant

    Darwin’s book does not endorse racism and I believe the morality of human eugenics is not exactly clear yet. We sure use selective breeding for crops and livestock.

    Um… so if I read that right, @robert, you think that selective breeding of human beings as though they were crops or livestock may be morally acceptable. I’ll give you this, you are certainly a son of the old South. Do you join with the early Darwinist eugenicists in the U.S. who wrote the laws in many states requiring various undesirable groups to be sterilized?

    Were this a common position here, you’d give credence to those who want to question the morality of atheists. 🙁

    #289

    erock68la
    Participant

    Humans (for the most part) are certainly capable of selecting for themselves with whom they breed, as opposed to the mindless breeding by animals based on instinct and availability. Somehow I doubt Robert was advocating for selective breeding of some humans by other humans. Usually it takes religion to elevate one group of chosen people over others.

    #290

    erock68la
    Participant

    @bob
    Do you have a source to back up your claim that “early Darwinist eugenicists” wrote sterilization laws and not good ole god-fearin’ white guys?

    #301

    DrBob
    Participant

    Do you have a source to back up your claim that “early Darwinist eugenicists” wrote sterilization laws and not good ole god-fearin’ white guys?

    The history of the Eugenics Movement in the United States and elsewhere is one of the best examples of science perpetrating horrific evil on humanity. Over 64,000 people were forcibly sterilized in the U.S. for being disabled, racially undesirable, and/or poor, ultimately with the blessing of the U.S. Supreme Court.

    The origins of the movement of course were with Francis Galton, Darwin’s cousin and collaborator. In the U.S., Charles Davenport, the Harvard-educated biologist ran one of the preeminent evolution research labs in the nation at Cold Springs Harbor, NY. It was his partner and collaborator H.H. Laughlin who is generally credited with drafting the model law for compulsory sterilization adopted by many states.

    See Farber, S.A. (2008) U.S. Scientists’ Role in the Eugenics Movement (1907-1939): A Contemporary Biologist’s Perspective. National Institute of Health PubMedCentral document PMC2757926.

    also Black, E. (2012) War against the weak: Eugenics and America’s campaign to create a Master Race

    #310

    DrBob
    Participant

    See also Leon, S.M. (2013) An Image of God: The Catholic struggle with eugenics. University of Chicago Press.

    Humans (for the most part) are certainly capable of selecting for themselves with whom they breed

    So are you suggesting, as the eugenics movement did, that humans should select breeding partners based on social desirability of offspring, rather than on love and commitment to each other? If I remember correctly, the eugenicists advocated for each woman producing at least 6 children so as to maximize the likelihood of successful combinations of desired traits in offspring. Monogamy would actually be a hindrance to such a program, of course.

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by  DrBob.
    #313

    cecilia fx
    Participant

    the only flag that should be allowed on government property is the flag of the USA. The State flag of that area is also ok.

    That said, what people wish to do on their own homes, in their cars, bodies, and so on is none of my business and I don’t care

    #315

    erock68la
    Participant

    So are you suggesting, as the eugenics movement did, that humans should select breeding partners based on social desirability of offspring, rather than on love and commitment to each other?

    Uh, no. I’m suggesting that people are capable of making considered and deliberate choices about who they will and won’t breed with, based on whatever the hell criteria is important to them.

    #327

    Davis
    Moderator

    Great topic GM. I hope you don’t mind a digression. Just as the confederate flag was:

    of treason, aggression, and bigotry, a symbol throughout the world of oppression and one of the worst violations of human rights perpetrated against a people for financial gain

    This sounds like a splendid description of Christianity during countless long stretches of grim misery. Should all crosses be taken down from and off of public buildings?

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by  Davis.
    • This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by  Davis.
    #331

    Gallup’s Mirror
    Participant

    Gallup: I’m gratified to see that some legislatures are realizing what is appropriate for a cemetery on public land.
    _Robert_: You mean Federal land, I hope.

    I mean public land and not just cemeteries either. For instance the legislature of South Carolina removed the Confederate flag from the (public) grounds of the state house today.

    And I agree with that. States, local and private parties should do what they want.

    Private parties, sure.

    I don’t think government at any level in a free and democratic society ought to have the power to fly the banner of slavery and white supremacy.

    Lets face it, the South lost and even if it won in the 1860s, the North probably would have reinvaded later anyways. The North was also built-up largely on the backs of slaves and in general had only decided it was wrong when economics deemed it to be wrong. The South would have as well.

    When the Revolutionary War ended in 1783 slavery was outlawed everywhere in the North but New Jersey within sixteen years. The first state constitution in Massachusetts– the oldest in the world and the model for the US constitution– abolished slavery as a matter of law, not economics.

    slavery timeline

    The average confederate solder was a pawn, didn’t own slaves and got caught up in a rich man’s war. As a southerner that is all that flag ever meant to me.

    I find it difficult to believe that the average Confederate soldier did not know he was fighting for slavery (whether he owned slaves or not). But assuming most Confederate soldiers were pawns, isn’t that another reason not to fly the flag of those who manipulated them (literally to their graves)?

    #333

    Gallup’s Mirror
    Participant

    Should all crosses be taken down from and off of public buildings?

    Yes but a judiciary stocked with Christian apologists will square the circle to ensure that “history” repeats itself no matter what the law says.

    #392

    _Robert_
    Participant

    @Gallup
    In my opinion each locality should decide through our local government what is right for local public lands, not the feds.
    Have you ever read the letters from confederate soldiers? You may get some insight into why they really fought…It’s the same theme over and over, they fight for their fellow soldiers, friends and relatives….I would bet many did not support slavery. BTW, I have never experienced racism of the intensity like I have in my business travels to Northern cities such as Boston and New York, or in my dealings with some Northerners. Mr. Bunker is alive and well.

    “Dear Mother,
    I tell you it was a trying case for me to pass so near home and not call but I pondered the matter. I thought sufficiently and thought it was my duty to stick to the company, deny myself, forsake home for the present and cleave to the cause of our bleeding country to drive the oppressors from our soil which threatens our own door. I thought we was badly needed or we would not a been sent for. I knew it would not be much pleasure for me to beat home without leave. I may never see you nor my home again but if I never do I can’t help it. I expect to be a man of Honor to our country at the risk of my life. I don’t want to be a disgrace to myself nor my relations. It is unknown who will get killed in this fight. It may be me and if I do get killed if there is any chance I want my body taken up and laid in the dust round old Sweetwater and I want a tombstone put at my head with my name and my company and regiment…..”
    excerpt from a letter by Eli Pinson Landers, 1863

    #400

    Gregg R Thomas
    Participant

    I think it’s a cool looking flag.
    Have I committed the crime of Racism?

    #406

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Do you drive around with it, flying high in the back of a truck, intentionally in black neighborhoods?

    I suppose that wouldn’t be a crime, even if you did, but it wouldn’t make the right kind of friends, imo.)

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by  PopeBeanie.
    #455

    Gallup’s Mirror
    Participant

    In my opinion each locality should decide through our local government what is right for local public lands, not the feds.

    If that’s the way it worked then Christian shrines on public land would be ubiquitous. It’s better to limit the power of government, local or otherwise, even in a democracy, when it comes to minority rights. In some localities, a vote on whether a certain symbol means ‘heritage’ or ‘slavery’ is like three wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

    Have you ever read the letters from confederate soldiers? You may get some insight into why they really fought…It’s the same theme over and over, they fight for their fellow soldiers, friends and relatives….I would bet many did not support slavery.

    We’ve covered this already, Robert. Whatever their other reasons, Confederate soldiers fought to preserve a social order based on slavery, genocide and white supremacy, knowingly or not, willingly or not. The Confederacy existed, waged war and flew banners to that aspiration.

    BTW, I have never experienced racism of the intensity like I have in my business travels to Northern cities such as Boston and New York, or in my dealings with some Northerners. Mr. Bunker is alive and well.

    Was the racism you experienced expressed through a monument erected by the local government on public property?

    Look at it like this. Have you ever been to Germany? Imagine the Berlin city government erected a memorial to Germany’s war dead, complete with the flag of the Third Reich, and defended it as ‘heritage’, family and friendship, while denying the soldiers’ hearts were really in the Holocaust. How much trust and credibility would this inspire you to feel in the local government? Would it make a difference if you were Jewish?

    #478

    Strega
    Moderator

    You know, when I was down in Louisiana, I discovered the people there do not call it the “American Civil War”. They call it the “War of Northern Aggression”. They also claim some of the northern states still had slaves, and that the war was fought because the north was losing out on import taxes etc when the southern plantations decided to develop and use a southern port instead of transporting their produce up to the northern ports.

    It’s no surprise, therefore, that different areas of the USA think differently about the flag in question.

    Seriously, the remedy for all this contradiction is education. If the Federal Government set educational graduation content, and all students had to pass a standardized federal exam to graduate, just like every other country in the western world does, you’d be able to resolve these insane disparities in what people believe is fact.

    • This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by  Strega.
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