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This topic contains 18 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  _Robert_ 6 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #3068

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I remember when I saw the 90’s London based romantic comedies (e.g. “Love Actually” and the Bridget Jones movies, etc)  and ended up visiting London several times I had this impression that London society was  very kind, caring, sexy and advanced and perhaps it was about the coolest city in the world to live in. Well, a buddy of mine was visiting with his wife and survived the London Bridge attack, running for their lives. Then I recalled the soldier butchered in broad daylight.

    My romantic illusions of London are shattered. Then I recalled when I was visiting with my girlfriend we were returning to the hotel, coming up from the tube…. a large group of Muslim teens who heard our American accents followed us for a few blocks, taunting us. I removed the wine bottle from the bag and was prepared clock the first one I could. I stopped and turned around and they slinked to the other side of the street. Such a shame. The Brit Museum needs a week alone to really appreciate.

     

     

    • This topic was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by  _Robert_.
    #3070

    JadeBlackOlive
    Participant

    Yes, I think many have changed their minds about visiting cities, without worry.

    #3071

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I feel for the anti-violent Muslims. This isn’t making their lives better. At the same time and with no due respect, what a stupid religion it is.

    #3072

    David Boots
    Participant

    I have sympathy for the muslims who speak out against violence in the name of their religion.

    But if, as a follower of this ideology, you fail to recognise that islam is no longer  ‘a religion of peace’ for some of it’s followers then we have a problem. Because it is readily apparent that for a variety of reasons, some of your fellow believers are unable to coexist with other people in the modern world. And they will resort to violence to make their point.

     

     

    #3143

    Strega
    Moderator

    David, if I started a terrrorist organization and started bombing and killing civilians in the name of David Boots, that doesn’t make you responsible in any way.  Annoyed perhaps- but not culpable.  Similarly, invoking Islam whilst you kill does not make Islam the culprit – I have read that people here believe the Qu’ran is the source of the evil, but in fact the Bible and the Qu’ran are astonishingly similar in the violence they invoke.

    Until this is understood, there is little hope that a solution can be found- blaming huge swathes of uninvolved peaceful people is disingenuous and promotes hatred and bigotry.

    #3145

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Until this is understood, there is little hope that a solution can be found- blaming huge swathes of uninvolved peaceful people is disingenuous and promotes hatred and bigotry.

    +1

    My attention recently is to find the moderates who are speaking up, and promote them.  I’m tired of the question “where are they”, and it’s time to start a list. In the end, I think only moderates can take ownership of Islam with their own, moderate interpretation, and get their governments to back off of the enforcement of theocracy. I.e., freedom for religion as well as freedom from religion. I want to support persecuted minority religions, at least.

    Yeah, getting the moderates to speak up publicly is laudable, but inciting hatred and blaming the moderates that we need to support seems to be the populist fad right now because of frustrations that cannot be easily solved by (e.g.) just going to war.

    Most importantly, I see few positive ideas from the right. I mention that because (some of them) blame the left for not solving the problem!? If one way to solve the problem is to stop the left from lumping the right into bigots and racists, fine, I’m good with that! Meanwhile, what we see now are righteous politicians supported by bigots and racists (like Trump) to get into power with the idea “do anything, even if it’s wrong”, because the politically correct left is to blame. (WTF?!)

    #3146

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Let’s face it; just about all of the world’s theocracies today are Islamic. A theocracy the polar opposite from the ideas of Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, and the democratic republics that followed ideas of Locke, etc.  It is the opposite of liberalism that some of us hold dear. Christianity on the other hand has lost it’s power to have nations rule under it’s devices. Christians are beyond that nonsense.

    These Islamic nations have governments that are threatened by the freedoms of Western Society. These leaders  want to stay in power. They sanction the violence, they use their believers as political weapons. Not  to mention the oppression of most people that live in these countries, especially women, homosexuals or practitioners of other religions.

    So, sure the book doesn’t matter, but one religion still has numerous followers who are willing and able to be used in the ultimate way.

     

     

     

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by  _Robert_.
    #3148

    Strega
    Moderator

    You know, I grew up in London.  I had my first bomb scare drill at school when I was six years old. This was in the mid sixties.   The IRA was the terrorist group of my time.  I have had my office bombed twice in two years – the first time, thankfully I was the last to leave, 20 minutes before our office exploded. This was in the late nineties.  The period between these two occurrences was fully and frequently interspersed with bomb related events, scares, or similar aggressive acts.

    For forty years, I lived in London under this terrorist threat.  When the American 9/11 event happened, it pretty much coincided in timing with the IRA disbandment, so London had one continuous flow of terrorist threat.  London doesn’t know what it’s like to NOT have a terrorist threat of some sort in the air.

    The IRA were not muslims.  They were allegedly fighting a Christian denomination sect war – Protestants versus Catholics.  You could call them Christian terrorists if you wanted to.

    In reality, most of the wars fought under the pretext of religion are territorial or mineral wars.  The ‘radical’ terrorists are not so different.  If we provided food, education and financial stability to regions, we would have a lot more chance at success in dissuading suicide bombers, for example.  Instead of giving them something to die for, maybe it’s time to try giving them something to live for.

    #3149

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Ireland, indeed see there ya go…the last Christian theocracy of  a sort. Most Christians had moved on by the 70’s….

    Are you suggesting we provide food, education and financial stability to Saudi Arabia, Iran or Pakistan? These are the theocracies that export terror. Saudi Wahhabism is the key component in all of this. The actual war zones like Iraq and Afghanistan are the unfortunate pawns caught up in the ideological war between the self-governed and the god-governed. Sharia law really puts the kibosh on my beloved rock and roll. I think the practice of Islam is a bad idea. I dont want their rules in my country, frankly put. Democracies can die by their own virtue.

    Oh I agree, you need territory and minerals….so you can do what you do.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by  _Robert_.
    #3151

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Back to London… then before the IRA there was the Nazis…so yeah perhaps that IS what makes London so great….brush off your knickers and then, Let’s ROCK !!!

    #3153

    _Robert_
    Participant

    and then a few minutes later a big fire…..dammm

    #3154

    JadeBlackOlive
    Participant

    Horrendous fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    #3155

    David Boots
    Participant

    If people started bombing and killing and stabbing and beheading in my name then I would be appalled. And I would condemn it in the strongest possible language.

    Would I be responsible for it? Well I didn’t actually do the killing so I am not responsible for that. But if I am silent then the message I send is that I accept people killing in my name.

    The focus should turn to who then can stop these extremists?

    So lets put the question in terms of how do we reach these extremely religious people who commit crimes in the name of their religion.

    A religious zealot is not going to listen to me. They may listen to a fellow muslim and it is these less religious muslims who need support from us. We can support them by sending them the message that speaking out is ok and it is right and it is necessary.

    So in terms of finding a solution – it would appear essential that the less extreme believers speak out.

    But rather than culpability we need to be talking about responsibility. It is my view that all muslims have a responsibility to take ownership of the problem and ownership of the solution. This quite clearly is not happening.

     

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by  David Boots.
    #3157

    Strega
    Moderator

    David, here’s a link to an article you might find interesting – 20 million muslims protesting ISIS

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by  Reg the Fronkey Farmer. Reason: edit by Reg to include a link
    #3166

    Strega
    Moderator

    Ha! Thanks Reg!

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