MGTOW

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This topic contains 18 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Unseen 2 months, 4 weeks ago.

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  • #9189

    Unseen
    Participant

    “Men Going Their Own Way” or MGTOW (pron. mig-tao with the hard “t”) is a topic I was unaware of until a couple days ago. Yet, a little googling and youtubing reveals that it’s a major discussion topic among women, who are complaining about the lack of men willing to marry or even commit to a monogamous relationship.

    Explanations abound, but the two main ones are these:

    From conservatives: “Why buy the cow if the milk is free?” “Today’s women don’t even try to be attractive (green hair, tattoos, smelly hairy bodies.” “Male shaming has become acceptable.” “So many things are legally stacked against males if the marriage goes bad.”

    From men: “Committed relationships, and especially marriage, fail a logical cost-benefit analysis because women have so many advantages over men in such relationships.”

    The following two Youtube discussions reflect those two threads of thought.

    A conservative view:

    Men venting:

    And one of the best balanced discussions around (a TedX):

    #9190

    daughterofkarl
    Participant

    This is the third thread you’ve started now around a similar theme.  Maybe you should cut to the chase and just state your hypothesis.  So far your argumentation is unclear, filled with unsubstantiated generalities, completely subjective and emotionally-based assertions, and your sources are unreliable and biased.

    I mean, “…a little googling and Youtubing reveals that it’s a major discussion topic among women…who are complaining about the lack of men willing to marry…or commit to a monogamous relationship??”

    Yeah.  Gross generalization, much?  And you’ll have to forgive me if I cannot take seriously a bunch of YouTube videos from questionable sources.   Leaving aside whether your points are valid–since I can’t actually determine what your points are–you’re demonstrating rather poor forensic skills.

    Or is that not what y’all do here?

    #9191

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    DO NOT TAKE THE RED PILL

    This is a very seductive ideology that plays straight into the under-developed male psyche and it’s very very dangerous.  “Every bad thing in the world is women’s fault”.  Yeah?  So I’m not responsible for anything?  Yaaay!

    These people are ZOMBIES who have lost the ability to think.  They are like pull-the-string dolls.  Please do not let yourself become one of them.  Every response to every question is “it’s women’s fault”.  They might as well be dead.

    #9192

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Daughterofkarl,  you said y’all…that is wizzar, pissar.

    #9193

    Unseen
    Participant

    This is the third thread you’ve started now around a similar theme. Maybe you should cut to the chase and just state your hypothesis. So far your argumentation is unclear, filled with unsubstantiated generalities, completely subjective and emotionally-based assertions, and your sources are unreliable and biased. I mean, “…a little googling and Youtubing reveals that it’s a major discussion topic among women…who are complaining about the lack of men willing to marry…or commit to a monogamous relationship??” Yeah. Gross generalization, much? And you’ll have to forgive me if I cannot take seriously a bunch of YouTube videos from questionable sources. Leaving aside whether your points are valid–since I can’t actually determine what your points are–you’re demonstrating rather poor forensic skills. Or is that not what y’all do here?

    I’m unsure what YOUR point is. Where is the bar of how many women need to talk about men not wanting to marry or commit for it to be a worth a Small Talk topic? When most women are talking about it? That’s a very high bar. Remember: this is SMALL talk. Normally, that means topics don’t have to be YUGE!

    What is the “similar theme” you think my posts revolve around? I don’t have a single overriding hypothesis. Or if you have identified one, please elucidate us. They all revolve around gender, but that’s not a theme. A theme would imply a point being made. Two of them have to do with questionable stats distributed by advocacy groups. I guess maybe that’s a theme.  But the MGTOW post isn’t about that at all. Do you also find the TedX video questionable? Why?

    What do you feel is “questionable” about the sources? And does everyone get to make up their own mind, or should they just take your word for it?

    #9194

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Here’s a programme from BBC World Service, on the dark side of MGTOW, which is already dark.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cswr5j

     

    #9195

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @unseen – “What is the “similar theme” you think my posts revolve around?

    – it does sound like you’ve got an anti-woman agenda going on there.

    #9196

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Face it. The white family dad is the un-coolest person on the planet.

    #9203

    physeter
    Participant

    What is the “similar theme” you think my posts revolve around?

    I noticed the theme also, and I think you know exactly what she’s referring to. You’ve posted against rape statistics, against equal pay…the theme is in questioning women’s rights, or women’s experiences. I’m not saying your posts are anti-woman, you are raising some interesting discussions, but I can see why what you’re doing could easily be perceived as anti-woman.

    #9206

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    There has been an uptick in anti woman-progressive-movements, which I noticed anecdotally right before Trump was elected. I met a woman who, otherwise seeming intelligent, said to me that “women were put on this earth to please men”. I was flabbergasted. I mentioned that woman abuse was still going on in this country, and she had no clue what I was talking about!?

    #9210

    daughterofkarl
    Participant

    I’m unsure what YOUR point is.

    My point is that you are putting out a lot of incendiary material without being clear about your purpose for doing so.  I am asking you to clarify your stand.

    Where is the bar of how many women need to talk about men not wanting to marry or commit for it to be a worth a Small Talk topic? When most women are talking about it? That’s a very high bar. (Bolding mine.)

    Most women are talking about it?  What women? Where? Who are these women?  As you stated, should we just “take your word for it?”  Did someone die and name you Grand Arbiter of All Things Women Talk About?  That’s another gross generalization, not supported by anything other than your opinion.

    Remember: this is SMALL talk. Normally, that means topics don’t have to be YUGE!

    Right.  My mistake.  Because rape is such an insignificant issue.  I reject that excuse.  If you are going to talk about serious things, you should be prepared to do so in a serious way.

    What is the “similar theme” you think my posts revolve around?

    Women, most broadly.  Although what exactly your position(s) is/are remains unstated.

    I don’t have a single overriding hypothesis.

    Clearly.

    Or if you have identified one, please elucidate us.

    I’m supposed to identify your position for you?  Um.  No.

    They all revolve around gender, but that’s not a theme. A theme would imply a point being made.

    So.  Not making a point.  Got it.  These posts are all just random, stream-of-consciousness ramblings with no real purpose in mind.  We have a saying where I am from:  Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining.

    Two of them have to do with questionable stats distributed by advocacy groups. I guess maybe that’s a theme. But the MGTOW post isn’t about that at all. Do you also find the TedX video questionable? Why?

    Actually the TedX speaker is the one source you’ve cited that I find least questionable.  Although, honestly, it isn’t particularly surprising that a group of men would present themselves in the best possible way to a beautiful young woman who, if your other sources are to be believed, present them with the possibility of sex.  I thought she made some valid points.  I, however, have never thought of men as the enemy, nor  I have ever believed that empowering women and people of color meant, by default, disempowering men.  That really seems to predominantly, be a white guy thing;  they seem absolutely terrified that if women and POC are given equal status in society, that they will be losing something.  (See how I did that?  That’s a gross generalization.  Does that fit you??)

    What do you feel is “questionable” about the sources? And does everyone get to make up their own mind, or should they just take your word for it?

    In your very first thread you stated:  “I’m aware that the American Enterprise Institute is a conservative think tank. While I’m politically liberal overall, I don’t think liberals or conservatives have a lock on the truth, so no poisoning the well, please! Let’s stick to facts.”
    You obviously are well-aware that your source is a not a good one.  Surely you understand that conservative think tanks do not deal in facts.  They deal in propaganda.  They are paid millions of dollars to generate “research” that reaches exactly the conclusions they want to reach to support their particular agenda.

    You know who is on the Board of Trustees for The American Enterprise Institute?  The Honorable Richard B. Cheney, and Dick DeVos.  You know, Dick Cheney– as in Vice President under Bush–and his pal Dick DeVos, the billionaire whose sister bought herself a position in the Trump administration.  You know:  Halliburton, Blackwater, lied the US into a unnecessary and illegal war using exactly the kind of “research” you want to present as unassailable.  Stick to the facts, indeed.  If you don’t want your well poisoned, maybe don’t draw oily, black bilgewater up from an already toxic source.

    As for Helen Smith, PhD, she is a blogger and columnist for PJ Media whose biography proudly touts her appearances on Fox News, Discovery, and The Learning Channel.  She also hosts a program on PJTV, an internet television service that made its debut at the 2008 National Republican Convention.

    You really can’t get much more biased than the sources you’ve chosen to use.

    What anyone else makes of them is entirely up to them.  I am not responsible for their standards of validity.

    Daughterofkarl, you said y’all…that is wizzar, pissar.

    🙂 Yup, jakelafort, I did.  I’m a Texan.  We talk like that.

    I have also been known to say “y’all’s” as in:  Are y’all taking the truck, or are you taking y’all’s car?

    And “all y’all,” as in:  Will all y’all fit in the back of that truck, or should we take two cars?

    And even, “y’all’d’ve,” as in:  I was fixin’ to come with y’all, if y’all’d’ve just waited a damn minute!

    Cheers!  Let me know if I can translate anything else for you! 😉  Oh!  And what does “wizzar, pissar” mean?  It’s vaguely familiar, but I don’t know why.  Does it mean “crazy” or like “out of control,” or something?

    DOK

    Incidentally, I do apologize if this is difficult to read.  I am still figuring out how to make effective use of the quote function here.

    #9216

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Daughterofkarl , now i see.  For some reason i thought you lived in Holland.

    Being a Texan  your facility with the nuances and permutations of all y’alls alls and yawls is jabberwocky talky so clear and sparky.

    I grew up near Boston and as a kid heard wizzar pissar lots.  It means cool.  If it is standard level of cool it is pissar.  If it is extra cool  it is wicked pissar or it is wizzar pissar.

    #9218

    Unseen
    Participant

    In no particular order.

    I don’t grant that my sources are objectionable. Rather that I know they might get a knee-jerk reaction because they were presented by a conservatively-oriented organization.

    Prof. Sommers offered valid criticisms of the advocacy groups’ statistics. For example, the worthlessness of statistics derived from surveys where replying is voluntary. People with a grievance or bad experience are far more likely to reply than people who haven’t.

    I would think that the idea that women are NOT systematically discriminated against, generally, and that the oft-given rape statistics are bloated (and that women are far less likely to be raped) would be good and welcome news!

    Apparently, it’s okay for a woman to criticize another woman for being attractive (the TedX presenter) and thereby poison her well. Had it been a male doing it…

    You don’t think you hate men, but maybe you just hate the uppity ones who apply actual logic to sacred cow topics.

    #9223

    Strega
    Moderator

    @unseen I find it slightly amusing that you think women broadly are discussing men who go their own way.  I have a reasonable presence on social media, and I’d never come across the abbreviation MGTOW, nor any women who feel they can’t find a man because of a group tendency called this.

    Oddly, I have come across the term ‘incels’ a fair bit.  This term means ‘involuntarily celibate’ and is used to describe young men (apparently usually white) who can’t get a woman to have sex with them.

    Do you think it is possible that here in the USA, sex is considered a man’s right, and marriage considered a woman’s domain, such that men are expected to trade marriage for sex?  Obviously not by all 360 million Americans, but perhaps only by the privileged….

    #9224

    Unseen
    Participant

    Things don’t become topics on American talk shows out of the blue. Such topics are pushed by substantial public interest, perhaps not in the circles you move in and perhaps not by being “broadly” driven. It’s become a magazine topic as well.

    Men Not Wanting to Marry: A Modern Problem

    13 Honest Reasons Men Say They Don’t Want To Get Married

    “Do you think it is possible that here in the USA, sex is considered a man’s right, and marriage considered a woman’s domain, such that men are expected to trade marriage for sex? Obviously not by all 360 million Americans, but perhaps only by the privileged….”

    That’s humorous. Here in the US, in relationships and especially marriage, women hold just about all the legal cards. As for trading marriage for sex, hookup culture aside, most women don’t want to get into a sexual relationship without a commitment to monogamy. Men are forced to trade commitment for sex and to marry for dependable sex, a commitment many women largely walk away from upon the arrival of the first child.

    Most of the reasons women offer to say men should want to get married fail logical evaluation. Men, by and large, do not feel a need to be loved, for example. At least, not to the degree women do. Men are more comfortable without relationship security.

    Here’s something to think about: If you go to the magazine rack, probably the thickest magazine on the rack will be Bride. You can search every planet in the universe without finding a Groom magazine. Marriage means a lot more to women and almost nothing to men, other than in their quest to reliably have sex.

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