Right, Wrong, and Killing

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This topic contains 44 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Dang Martin 5 years, 8 months ago.

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    Belle, my guess is that mental illness is less prevalent among such people.  But i doubt it is absent since it seems to be part of  nature for mammals.  It would be a great area for anthropology to examine …head into the amazon and make friends with some one of those isolated tribes..

    It might shed light on the price of modernity.



    I agree. I think the cost of modernity is greater than the rewards.



    responding thoughtfully, i just blew 1/2 hr pecking on this tiny ass screen before browser crashed

    damn these newfangled ways!



    You know what is interesting Belle?

    I have run into so many hikers on the Appalachian Trail who are happy. I am talking about through hikers who have committed six months to complete the trail.  These through hikers have foregone all of the conveniences of modernity.  After burning a gazillion calories and going hard for eight hours on the trail there is no shower to take, comfy bed to crash on, or any of those things we take for granted.



    They don’t need a bunch of philosophical mumbo jumbo.

    Belle, with this incredible ability of yours to just dismiss an enormous field of study you know next to nothing about…it’s one more reason I just cannot take you seriously anymore.



    These people aren’t even literate but they are the most hospitable and happy I’ve ever seen.

    Then you clearly haven’t seen a lot of indiginous people. Some of the most scariest moments of my life were while traveling in Saharan Africa, South Asia and South East Asia (not to mention Northern Canada). I’ve gone from a group of kind local people whipping up into a psychotic frenzy over one of the tribesmen looking too long at someone else’s daughter (it was so scary I literally ran away and never went back, or watching a couple on their wedding day spend their first hours screaming at one another over who owned the pig, to toothless smiley nice people, kind as you’ve ever met, and so full of ailments and problems that the 40 year olds could barely perform their ENDLESS list of  chores they had to do. Life was chores and hardship and ailments (and likely tons of pain based on inflammation). And then there were the nomads of Iran in which the men were exceedingly generous and kind, treating me like a price, slaughtering their best lamb for my visit…and then one father chasing after their daughter who was spying on us and smacking the absolute shit out of her for looking at another man (I). Then there were my indiginous friends in Northern Canada who decided to go spend a couple years living with their grandparents and learn the ways of this  and that, I found them abusing every substance I could find and despite traveling 20 hours to visit them, I had to leave after a couple hours as I was absolutely not safe there. I do have to say the tribal people’s of Central India were delightful. What made them so delightful is that, in fact, they have no more or less problems than “ordinary” non-tribal people in India have (they all are poor, have short lives, are malnourished and suffer from ailments) but they did have incredible kindness, graceful traditions, insane amount of patience and calmness and beauty.

    So there you go…in all of my travels I’ve seen one example of actual indigenous people living up to that idealistic image of being one with nature, living a fulsome life and showing in the slightest a higher sense of morality.


    So while Dances with Wolves is a wonderful film and visiting a truly tribal or nomadic people is fun for a while, look deeper, stay more than a day etc. and that beautiful idyl will more likely than not…wash away. Remember, Dances of Wolves only showed the tiniest part of the head scalpers and kidnappers in their culture, and 7 years in tibet never showed the feudal nature of Tibetan Nomads (it’s pretty ugly). So no….I wouldn’t dare on my life lend “common sense” to 99/100 cultures I’ve ever met….including our own.



    Belle, with this incredible ability of yours to just dismiss an enormous field of study you know next to nothing about…it’s one more reason I just cannot take you seriously anymore.

    @davis that is a pretty tall assumption that I know “next to nothing about ” something like that. How dare you insult my intelligence. I have a DEGREE centered around the topic and I’m working on another one. Honestly you don’t have to take me seriously. But if you really want to go to battle I’m game. You just go ahead and sit there thinking you’re better than me. Just because I no longer have tolerance for superfluous cumbersome bullshit doesn’t mean I don’t understand it.



    @jakelafort I truly believe the more connected we are to nature the happier we are. The happiest month of my life was in rural Guatemala sleeping on the ground.



    @davis: so let me get this straight. You’re insisting on dismissing my “subjective opinions ” when expressed on….Just about everything but now I’m supposed to take yours seriously? Where’s your “objective evidence ” Davis? Or is that just used as an excuse to shut people up on the forum now.



    Belle, the woods are lovely dark and deep and rural Guatemala is a fine place to sleep.

    In other news I agree with you.



    If I had the choice between living in an indigenous village where maybe I get the shit slapped out of me, but I’m not alone, or living in an upper middle class neighborhood in one of the richest countries in the world but starving to death both figuratively and literally I would take the former.



    @jakelafort I would give anything to go back



    And if I had to choose between murdering someone or letting them rape me in front of my kids I would choose the former. I should have bought a gun when I had the chance.


    David Boots

    Belle it seems like your in a tough place mentally right now. You might try looking at the little things you can do each day that at least help until you can change the big picture for you.


    Dang Martin

    This thread went all over the place, but that’s okay because it opens the floor to more things. Besides, it’s just a thread. No big whoop.

    When it comes to a college education, it’s important to remember that “Ds get degrees.” My aunt went to college for six years to get her Master’s in Political Science, and she’s not even the best waitress at Denny’s.

    If I had had a choice between two ridiculous and extreme scenarios, I’d have to take some time to seriously question my view of the world, and why I’d even want to suggest that as a reality. Why not two extremely positive scenarios? Why can’t I choose between my harem feeding me grapes, and my harem rubbing my feet? Why not BOTH? Then you can get slapped around AND starve to death at the same time. What a world!

    Mental illness in the West has its unique qualities. In the Western world, the “voices” in people’s heads tend to suggest violence, such as Baby Jesus telling someone to put a baby in an oven because it is “of the devil.” But in other African and Indian cultures, the voices can be more benign, or maybe even playful [source].

    Western culture is a constant bullhorn of advertising and the quest to gain attention. It’s at just about every turn. For several years, as I shopped for a new television, I would ask myself, “How much money am I willing to spend so that advertisers can have the privilege of putting things in my face?”

    That can get tiring, which is why it’s important to have silence. 10-15 minutes is good, although I prefer 20-30 minutes. No phone or anything. Just alone in the quiet, with my thoughts. It can be difficult at first, but facing the beasts in that silence gets easier the more it is done.

    If someone were to attack me in my home, I would not consider the act of taking their life to be “murder,” based on intent. I do think there are people who might view this differently, and who may even suggest that one “turn the other cheek.”

    If common sense were common, then the movers would have done a better job with the furniture and these boxes.

    I think that there are cultural pressures to determine right from wrong, but perspective is also important.

    Within the context of the subject, a home invasion occurs, and I kill the intruder. From my perspective, I got lucky and get to live another day. From the perspective of the average person, they may view this as a bad story with the best outcome possible.

    But for the family of the person who was killed, they may have different feelings about it. They could be of the position that this family member was ALWAYS a problem, and maybe he had this coming. Others might be upset and show up to court with his baby pictures, because this is how they will always see him. To them, it might be considered a senseless killing or a murder. But I had no intent to murder anyone when I was awoken from my slumber.

    If I had to pick between fire ants in my bum and bleeding sores in my throat…. wait, WHO is giving me these choices again? This game stinks!

    People will get mentally triggered by different things. For me, there was a time when a certain type of phrase would set me off:

    “OMG, Jerry spent almost 90 minutes cleaning the kitchen. He’s like, totally OCD.”

    If somebody says or writes something that sets you off, the first thing you have to do is figure out why. This was upsetting to me, as someone who has been dealing with OCD, because there is a BIG difference between being overly-tidy, and washing your hands so much that you might not even be able to leave the house that day.

    Then, it is important to figure out intent. Was that person trying to upset me with their OCD comment? Probably not. Do they even know that I’m dealing with this? Definitely not.

    After that, dismiss it. Part of being an adult means disabling those triggers. Spending one’s day getting angry at every person who sets you off is a waste of a life. You will not get a safe space.

    I suspect that my use of “Baby Jesus” is upsetting to some. They should consider writing that off. And DO NOT drive around during Christmas, because you might see a nativity scene, which prominently features a Baby Jesus, right in the middle. I kid you not.

    Good and bad can also rely heavily on perspective. In a realistic scenario, suppose that you work for a company that has been growing so quickly that your organization is now top-heavy with executives, as well as their friend who were given jobs where they do nothing. The end of the year is coming up, meaning that they want the books to look good, the investors want good news, and the executives want raises.

    So the company announces NO holiday bonuses for the year. Instead, they give you a talk about “the fog of war,” after handing you a copy of “Who Moved My Cheese?” The foggy war speech ends with a talk about how 30% of the staff has been cut, and the survivors will have to take a 5% cut in pay while picking up the slack.

    I call this scenario “realistic” because I worked at a place that did this.

    If you are a WORKER, regardless of whether you got down-sized or got a raw deal with the pay cut and work load increase, you would see this as a BAD thing. You might even call it immoral. How DARE they do this, just to make their numbers look good, and for their bonuses?

    But if you are an EXECUTIVE or a STOCK HOLDER, then you will see this as a good thing. Your investment has improved. Your bonus is fat. You sleep very well at night with no concern about the people whose lives were potentially destroyed.

    So WHAT’S IN IT FOR ME if I kill a home intruder? I get to live. A good thing in Western civilization?

    Kill a person for their wallet? I get whatever money they have in their wallet or purse, or maybe just receives. A bad thing in Western Civilization.

    I saw a man shoot another man to death for the horrible crime of looking at him. Yes, there are primates out there just like this. Also a bad thing in Western Civilization.

    Killing someone you love, because you love them, and because it’s what they’ve expressed that they would want, has typically been considered a bad thing in Western Culture. However, some states are now adopting “Right to Die” laws that may prevent these types of dilemmas. People can now make this decision, and take advantage of this service, should the proper time come.

    For me, if I had something horrible and incurable, such as End Stage Renal Failure, where the pain becomes most significant, I think that would be a good time to check out. The pain killers aren’t working, and I’m just suffering until I die, so why not?

    And yet, there are “moral Christians” out there who are against a person’s individual decision to take their own life. They say that “all life is sacred,” as they work to force their “morality” upon others.

    Maybe it’s because they believe that suffering is essential. Maybe it’s because they follow their bible and believe that killing yourself is a mortal sin that lands a person in hell. Why they’d care about a heathen sinner like me, I have no clue.

    But it is a case of them forcing their own morality onto others.

    For me, I don’t see killing myself as a bad thing, or something that is wrong, when I consider the conditions that make it right for me. It’s not about feeling sad and offing myself. It’s a serious decisions. It’s also nobody else’s business.

    For those who are concerned, no, I am not suicidal.

    The strangest thing to me is that Christians has so much fear about death, even though they supposedly believe that they will be in a blissful Heaven for all of eternity. There could be a situation, in that they “believe” in a way where they go through the motions, go to church twice per year [if that], and don’t read their bible, and the consideration of death brings them fear, like a school child who knows they have a test in an hour, and that they did not read their chapters the night before.

    This would cause me to question whether or not belief in a god or the practice of a religion actually does anything to alleviate a person’s fear of death. Certainly, if I believe that an option would be eternal damnation and suffering in the fires of hell, I might have some fear, especially when dealing with a judgmental, flippant, angry, and emotional god who behaves like Donald Trump.

    I don’t know what will happen when I die, but I have my suspicions, in that being dead could be similar to my experience from before I was born. Was it dark? Was I afraid?

    No. And even though it lasted for billions of years, it felt like the blink of an eye.

    That’s why, for me, I don’t know and I don’t care. As for killing others, I do think that context should matter, but I know that it does not.

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