The plus side of the establishment of Israel…

[UnseenParticipant]

What is it? I ask because the negative legacy is staggering. A lot of the rancor and  risk the West faces today stems from it directly or derivatively.

From a 2006 article linked to at the end entitled What If Israel Had Never Been Created?

As you read, remember 18 years have passed since the writing of the article and things have not been doing anything but getting worse.

One wonders: What would the world look like today, if the state of Israel had not been created in 1948? Its improvident formation seems to have set in motion a chain of events, mostly negative, in the affairs of Mankind. In the movie, “Click,” the lead character finds a “universal remote” that allows him to rewind to different parts of his life and to change what had happened. If I possessed such a “universal remote” and could stop President Truman from aiding and abetting the establishment of an Israeli state, then, it is my speculation, (a theory), that the following 25 propositions would probably be our present day reality. They are:

1. The U.S. would not have any enemies in the Islamic World.
2. There would be no Al-Qaeda Terrorist Network.
3. Gasoline would be selling for less than $1 a gallon.
4. There would have been no 9/11.
5. There would be no USA Patriot Law.
6. There would be no Homeland Security Agency.
7. The Israeli Lobby’s “unmatched power” over the U.S.’ foreign policy, for over four decades, would not had existed. (Its support for the Iraqi War was deemed by the experts to be “critical.”) [3]
8. There would also not have been any Neocon ideologues; like Paul Wolfowitz, William Kristol, Richard Perle, et al, to help, (along with other “Special Interests”), to push the U.S. into an illegal war with Iraq. [4]
9. Iran would not be the next target for U.S. aggression. (No Israel. No “A Clean Break” document. No Israeli Lobby. No Neocons. No need for the U.S. to attack Iran.) [5]
10. The Zionist fink, Jonathan Pollard, wouldn’t be in prison for stealing U.S. military secrets and hawking them to Israel.
11. The three million-plus Palestinians, who were forcefully dispersed from their homeland, since 1948, by the Israeli Occupation Forces, (IOF), would, instead, be living happily there today, in a free and independent state of Palestine. There would be no Apartheid Wall, or as a corollary, a Hamas organization. [6]
12. Jerusalem would have a vibrant Christian population. [7]

Go here for 13 more and the footnotes.

So, apparently some think the world is somehow a better place due to the establishment of the state of Israel.

Got a list of why the world is a better and safer place now due to the establishment of Israel? I’d sure love to see it.

[_Robert_Participant]

Nah. “Palestine” would just be another poverty-stricken dump like Yemen or Lebanon. The Mullahs just can’t stand it that Israel is prospering, manufacturing, developing and farming and all without oil exports. Without the oil, they know that they themselves would be all about tents and goats. Makes them look bad. Plus, Israel has democracy, women’s rights, openly gay folk, and secular education.

Sharif don’t like it.

[UnseenParticipant]

_Robert_ wrote:

Nah. “Palestine” would just be another poverty-stricken dump like Yemen or Lebanon. The Mullahs just can’t stand it that Israel is prospering, manufacturing, developing and farming and all without oil exports. Without the oil, they know that they themselves would be all about tents and goats. Makes them look bad. Plus, Israel has democracy, women’s rights, openly gay folk, and secular education. Sharif don’t like it.

So, I’ll take that under advisement, but why would there have been 9/11 without the establishment of Israel, for example?

Now, you catalog all the Western values that countries in the region don’t live up to, but what gives us the right to meddle. Suppose, for example, it was India that came out on top after WW2, they could have decided that because by their lights it’s morally outrageous to eat beef, they have the right to change our ways.

The unspoken principle behind your argument is that “might makes right.”

I think we probably wouldn’t have the Middle Eastern powder keg we have now if we’d let the post-WW2 world settle itself without the U.S.-enthralled West making decisions for it.

Anyway, I asked for a list of the many benefits that have accrued to the world due to the establishment of Israel. I don’t see even one in there.

[UnseenParticipant]

The current spate of student protests occurring at campuses in America and Europe wouldn’t be happening except for the establishment of Israel. They are happening because their Middle Eastern classmates are frightened for their families back home and/or are losing friends and relatives there, dying at the hands of the IDF.

Why is it so hard to admit that the creation of Israel either was or likely was a consequential mistake contributing to the tensions of today’s international affairs?

[_Robert_Participant]

Millions of Jews were humiliated, tortured, and murdered. Their home countries unwilling or unable to defend them. I doubt those victims would think (as they were being rounded up in cattle cars) that the Post-WWI Zionist’s efforts to return to ancient territories to reconstruct a nation with a strong defense force was a mistake.

However, key mistakes were made way before Israel became a state. The Arabs under Faisal did not get the lands they were promised even though he helped the Brits eject the Turks from the region. The French were not giving up their colonial slice just to help the over-promising Brits appease the Arabs.

However, in later years the Arabs rejected the two-state solution several times. They started wars and lost Arab lands to Israel. Oh well.

This entire thing is about Arab pride.

 

 

 

[RichRaelianParticipant]

[_Robert_Participant]

RichRaelian wrote:

Oh, look, a flag. Meaningless post typical of social media nowadays. Devoid of any attempt at deep intellectual ability to see both sides of a story. To explain why thing are where they are. To delve into possible solutions. Thanks for enlightening us so much with your flag that has stood for religiosity, terrorism, genocide, murder, hate, and using human shields. Great that you jumped on the mindless bandwagon of inexperienced, entitled children away at college who think they know something. Some of them “non-binary”, so that the Palestinian/Iranian mullahs would be more than happy to snuff their lives away immediately. So, yeah, they got their flags too.

Flags are so useful to authoritarians so the simple-minded hordes who carry them to their own ends, aren’t they? Just like religion. Fuck flags.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,

Any Jews left after The Holocaust would still be Third-Class Citizens in Islam-ruled lands, as would Christians, and Polytheists such as Hindus and Non-Theists such as Buddhists and Atheists would still be exterminated outright, as per both Sha’ria and the laws of Jihad. Jews would still be hated minorities in Christian-ruled and Communist-ruled lands. Is all this a positive thing that would result if Israel never existed, Unseen?

Islam would still hold Al-Qu’ran as sacred holy writ of Allah dictated to Muhammad via The Archangel Jibril, including all of it’s non-stop autistic passages saying that Unbelievers would face slavery and slaughter in this life and eternal Hell-Fire in the Afterlife. All this would be the case whether or not Israel existed. Is this a positive thing, Unseen?

Sunni and Shia Muslims would still hate, fight, and murder one another over who is to rule the Islamic Caliphate as they have always done since the day Muhammed died. All this would be the case whether or not Israel existed. Is this a positive thing, Unseen?

Islam would still enslave and murder millions of Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, and African Animists. All this would be the case whether or not Israel existed. Is this a positive thing, Unseen?

And Islam would continue all of these horrors until all of Planet Earth is under Islam, again, whether or not Israel existed. Is this a positive thing, Unseen?

• This reply was modified 7 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling
• This reply was modified 7 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Addendum

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,

Oh, and Muslims would still be moral agents with Volition and responsible for their own actions, regardless of U.S. and Western nation’s foreign policy and whether or not Israel existed. “Blowback” tends to forget things like that.

[_Robert_Participant]

I would rather deal with 1,000,000 conservative Jews banging their dreadlocked heads against a wall than one jihadist with a suicide vest. There is just no comparison. When Zionists start hijacking jetliners and crashing them into office buildings in downtown Dubai full of working people, I would change my mind.

[UnseenParticipant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Unseen, Oh, and Muslims would still be moral agents with Volition and responsible for their own actions, regardless of U.S. and Western nation’s foreign policy and whether or not Israel existed. “Blowback” tends to forget things like that.

Regarding your prior two posts, I can grant all that and assert that the world today would be a far safer place had Israel not been created. I’m waiting for the list of benefits to the world that have accrued from the creation of Israel, making the world a better, safer, less violent place.

It still looks like there can’t be any such list. The creation of Israel (too late to undo, unfortunately) was fairly clearly a horrible miscalculation.

Following Georgia Santayana, if we don’t learn from our mistakes, will tend to repeat them.

[_Robert_Participant]

Unseen wrote:

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Unseen, Oh, and Muslims would still be moral agents with Volition and responsible for their own actions, regardless of U.S. and Western nation’s foreign policy and whether or not Israel existed. “Blowback” tends to forget things like that.

Regarding your prior two posts, I can grant all that and assert that the world today would be a far safer place had Israel not been created. I’m waiting for the list of benefits to the world that have accrued from the creation of Israel, making the world a better, safer, less violent place. It still looks like there can’t be any such list. The creation of Israel (too late to undo, unfortunately) was fairly clearly a horrible miscalculation. Following Georgia Santayana, if we don’t learn from our mistakes, will tend to repeat them.

Your point is mute. The Jews don’t owe the world anything. Israelis that reside in-country will not be rounded up and murdered in mass as they were in Poland, Scandanavia, France, Eastern Europe and the Middle East. If you attack Israel, you will get more than you can handle. Egypt, Jordan and Syria got their asses handed to them. And now Hamas who are only good a shooting rockets at civilians and murdering kids at a music festival and then hiding underneath their own hospitals and schools. As long as Palestinians support their Jihadists, they are ethically bound to suffer the same fate.

Russia decided not to get involved with the Warsaw Uprising against the Nazis. Halted their advance and waited outside the city. The Western Allies decided to extend the war by going up through Africa and Italy instead of just going after Berlin straight away. All the smoke and ashes day after day.

[UnseenParticipant]

@ Robert

Thanks for the history discussion that really has little bearing on answering my request for a list of all of the benefits that have followed the creation of Israel by outside forces.

My post isn’t about the Jews. It would be the same had we instead created a state out of whole cloth for gypsies in Hungary or for Sikhs in China. We might be on the doorstep of WW3 if we had gone out of our minds in a manner similar to the one we were in when we foisted Israel on the Middle East.

My post is about the unwisdom of creating artificial countries to the benefit of some group or other without considering the lengthy row of dominoes that could start tumbling.

Hopefully, from now on our leaders will be wise enough to realize you can’t just up dislocate, dispossess, and/or disenfranchise a group without incurring deep and abiding resentments.

 

[UnseenParticipant]

List, anyone?

1. …

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,

All nations are artificial in that they are the creation of human beings and not an organic part of the rest of the Earth and the Natural Universe.

Some time back, I posted a short video of just a sample of the science and technological innovations created by Israeli Citizens, if you had just cared to watch it. The search engine for the Forum works as good for you as it does for me.

There is also that little COVID-19 vaccine from Pfizer. I’m living proof of it’s efficacy, since I am Double-Vaxxed, Triple Boosted, I have no side effects, and I detect no RF interference from any injected chips.🤖 😁

Not to drag Reg into this, but he documented today in the Sunday School that the mRNA research used to fight COVID-19 is now the basis for a possible vaccine against cancer! L’Chaim, I say!🥂

It would be interesting to see if BDSers would boycott all this becsuse of the ties to Israel.

• This reply was modified 7 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling from bulky fingers on little keyboards

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