Science — the kind that requires evidence and reason.

Mommy, do the udder moo cows eat meat?

This topic contains 31 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  jakelafort 4 months ago.

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  • #41114

    No, son, we don’t. We have not evolved to do so. Our teeth are formed to eat grass and our digestion system is designed to process it. It was unherd of until a few years ago when some of us had our feed spiked with meat by the “two legs bad” people. That led to many of us going insane with bovine spongiform encephalopathy. It was very calfkaesque. We were never cannibals. To stop it spreading millions of us were slaughtered!

    The two-leggers think they could not have evolved without eating meat but it is possible that such a hypothesis is flawed or at least that “meat made them human” is more nuanced than many of them think. Now I am off to jump over the moon.

    #41116

    Belle Rose
    Participant

    😂 Do you think it’s possible to be healthy eating as a vegan?

    #41118

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Reg,

    “Formed?” “Designed?” Right there indicates that the cow isn’t thinking right. She probably stampeded over to Ken Ham’s museum and masticated his porcine regurgitations. 🐮🐷😁

    While I agree that there probably is more nuance to what made human brains bigger and smarter, there is also nuance to the practice of most meat-eaters as well.

    It was human and bovine Zombies eating “B-R-A-A-A-A-I-N,S!” that lead to Kreutzfeldt-Jacob Disease and Mad Cow Disease. (You can tell the cows who have Mad Cow Disease because they go: “MOOOO-WHA-HAHAHA!”) 🐂🤪

    Speaking for myself and many others as an Omnivore, my meat-eating is mostly confined to the muscle-y, sinew-y portions of the beast.

    Liver is the only organ meat I’ve ever liked. The liver of the cow or chicken braised with onions and bell pepper slices and served with ketchup on the side are super, and pig liver in the form of fried, sliced loaves of liver pudding or liver mush is a great Southern breakfast treat with eggs and grits. Chicken gizzards are too bitter for my taste and just the mentions of brains, tripe, haggis, and chitterlings are disgusting and right out! 🤮

    So, my dish and spoon and knife follow the cow over the Moon and back, but only certain parts and as part of a balanced diet.

    🍖🍗🥩🥓🍔🍕🌭🥪🌮🌯🫔🥙🥦🧄🥒🫑🌶🍅🥕🍓🍒🍉🍇🍈🍏🍎🍍🍞🥖🥨🥯

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Addendum. Thogh some like liver pudding and liver mush cold, fried is best
    #41120

    I am only quoting what the cow said. It is enough having to put up listening to the fronkeys all day long.

    #41127

    Unseen
    Participant

    😂 Do you think it’s possible to be healthy eating as a vegan?

    Possible, yes. Easy, only if you are ready to really obsess over what you eat.

    #41154

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    The liver of the cow or chicken braised with onions and bell pepper slices and served with ketchup on the side are super, and pig liver in the form of fried, sliced loaves of liver pudding or liver mush is a great Southern breakfast treat with eggs and grits.

    Have you tried fava beans with that? (Just thinking this reply might be a clever way to introduce another nuance wrt our evolution-related meat-eating behaviors.)

    #41156

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    I’m noticing our innate tendency to simplify our scientific explanations, even among scientists, but especially in journalism. While I’m personally still struggling with how to discuss further nuances with people, without putting them to sleep. Please feel free to brew a pot of any caffeine-laced beverage… I’ll get further and farther into “meat” in a moment.

    Brief asides, did you know that caffeine evolved as an insecticide? Ditto for nicotine, and various mint-like aromatic chemicals that have hexagonally structured molecules and are more intensely sensed by olfactory organs that have evolved to do so. I’m guessing that insects were among the first to evolve such sensors.

    So now, head-first into metaphorical meat, in this meet, and a deeper dive. The study of human evolution is necessarily complicated and nuanced by the fact that a number of evolved primate traits evolved relatively quickly and haphazardly, especially in the case of humans.

    This or that hardware trait, like dexterity in hands, upright walking, brain size, loss of fur plus ability to sweat to cool off and out-endure prey on the run, increasingly fine-tuned vocal tracts for increasingly nuance- and information-filled verbal communication, and software traits like increasingly complex cultural  behaviors that include theory-of-mind abilities to help bands and tribes learn more quickly how each human member feels, what they might need and how they might behave later, increasingly expanding and culturally-perpetuated language abilities alongside our evolving hardware… these are just a few of the uniquely human traits that rapidly incurred extraordinary abilities to survive as individuals and groups, out-pacing (and sometimes even usurping) Mother Nature’s usually-slower pace of typical hardware-centered evolution.

    Speaking of communication (and humany self-reflection and word invention), I’d normally break a paragraph like the previous one into more easily edible sentences. But I’ll likely never sufficiently hone this post, anyway. Somewhat related to another point, about how we invented and culturally honed and/or abused our story-telling abilities, thespianism, and the ways to store and disperse or mangle information.

    So while trying to account for all the various and interelating, new kinds of human capabilities we’ve inherited and customized, imo it shouldn’t surprise anyone that a bit of both physiological and behavioral chaos was (and still are) significant byproducts of our unnaturally rapid evolution. (Or reword that to “unusually rapid evolution“, for those people whom I’ve seen insist “but all kinds of evolution are ‘natural‘, brah”.)

    Word, brahs and shorties! The bulk of our recent, rapid evolution is an accelerating, supremely enhanced and self-enhanced, unplanned/accidental process, and our cultural evolution adds more new and unexpected capabilities and quirkiness than ever before — take Facebook and Meta, please! –, more even than our natural genetic evolution. We choose how culture evolves, in spite of Mother Nature, for better and for worse. (Albeit “Not all choices matter”, if I may culturally appropriate and inappropriately invert and corrupt a recently invented, cultural meme.) [Obscure Meta Q: Too many parens in this post? But meta and meat use the same letters.]

    As for the scientific subject of real meat and fat, and/versus vegetables in our diet, our appendix is an example of an organ that hasn’t had enough evolutionary time to optimize its design to work well with all our newly discovered, newly-periodically available edibles made possible by our overall (and sometimes overly) successful evolution; it  has shrunk but hasn’t completely disappeared, and we can live without it. It still maintains some helpful functioning like in the digestion of vegetable matter, and in triggering some immune responses to pathogens detected in food that reaches that far into the intestines, in spite of its significantly life-ending threat when it’s unable to neutralize its own infections.

    Forgot to mention how our ability to cook food most certainly enhanced which foods — including meats, we could survive on. And it’s important to highlight the high costs of big brains, including the necessary  simultaneous evolution of larger birth canals, and the additional necessity of needing more calories in the diet to support it. Sometimes the brain uses up 80% of the all the energy that our body requires! The availability of calories in fat are very high, and whether or not the question for today is if humans can live without it, there really is no question that the ability to procure and cook fat (and the meat that comes with it) had a major impact on long-term survivability of the species. Whether or not it was rarely available, or often available. Abilities to procure and cook a wide range of foods, the procurability of which varied over time and geography, added greatly to survivability. Archeological evidence is anecdotal and still incomplete. Arguments shouldn’t be in either/or terms, but in analog terms of probabilities over short and long periods of time, which, I’m sorry, is just not as easy to come up with as the either/or questions and answers.

    So, trying to summarize the above, while mostly in agreement with other observations and while appreciating looming questions in this topic: 1) Human evolution, due to its rapid and often haphazard processes, including (not mentioned earlier), periodically required re-adjustments to physically environmental and biospheric survival pressures, is still a novel and complicated topic! 2) It is a topic ripe for charlatan opportunism, especially when the questions and answers concern individual people’s health, for which simple answers cannot work for everyone in all circumstances.

    Although I’m categorically not in favor cannibalism outside of movies, tv, and operas.

    Reg, I hope I haven’t detracted from anyone’s interest in this awesome topic!

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  PopeBeanie. Reason: pretty sure i had to add a semi-colon somewhere in there
    #41158

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Our ancestors, much like most modern primates surely ate whatever they could get including insects and meats. This does not automatically imply that eating meat is healthy for us with our long lifespans and lifestyles.

    #41159

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Dat hurt to enter another group.

    Credit to Robert for his point about revenge in cross species pandemics. That means the vegans/vegetarians are collateral damage.

    Have not investigated but the findings do not surprise me. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/02/220208143307.htm

    A big point about meat and nutrition is that processed or deli meat is from what i gather pretty conclusively associated with cancer and heart disease. charring on the grill may be like an extra dollop of carcinogen. And the big studies from what i recall have differentiated results for wild game and factory farmed meat.

    Pope i am not sure if you are saying that those are unique human traits or traits that uniquely propelled us. If it is the former then i gotta say theory of mind has been more or less established in gorillas, chimps and bonobos. I would be surprised if it were not far broader than that.

    #41160

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Pope i am not sure if you are saying that those are unique human traits or traits that uniquely propelled us. If it is the former then i gotta say theory of mind has been more or less established in gorillas, chimps and bonobos. I would be surprised if it were not far broader than that.

    Both, but neither statement nor all specific cases that support the statements are 100% true. There are matters of degree, as is typical for a lot of scientific conclusions.

    Take Reg’s first post, for example. Even a fronkey farmer must have a  theory-of-mind capability sophisticated enough to imagine how a cow actually thinks, unless his fronkeys are informing him of their social experiences with one or more cows. (I could be wrong about such things. I’ve never even been to the UK, much less Ireland.)

    And btw, imo, this vast difference in theory of mind traits is what makes many of Gary Larson’s comics so relatable, and funny. Teach a cow to read, and I’ll bet he/she would still never understand that kind of humor.

    Speaking of theory of mind in animals, Franz de Waal has a relatively new book that’s relevant: Mama’s Last Hug: Animal Emotions and What They Tell Us about Ourselves, 2019. ISBN 978-0-393-63506-5

     

    #41162

    Unseen
    Participant

    Liver is the only organ meat I’ve ever liked. The liver of the cow or chicken braised with onions and bell pepper slices and served with ketchup on the side are super, and pig liver in the form of fried, sliced loaves of liver pudding or liver mush is a great Southern breakfast treat with eggs and grits. Chicken gizzards are too bitter for my taste and just the mentions of brains, tripe, haggis, and chitterlings are disgusting and right out!

    I was fed liver and onions by my mom when I was young and my brother and I hated it.

    The only form of liver I can sometimes enjoy liver pate but it’s got to be very very mild, usually from France.

    #41164

    This opinion piece from the NYT is called “Meet the People Getting Paid
    to Kill Our Planet”, about how American agriculture is ravaging the air, soil and water. But a powerful lobby has cleverly concealed its damage.

    It is part 1 of 3.

    As it has embedded links and a video story, it is too difficult to copy and paste. It is most likely behind a paywall but if not it is well worth reading and watching.

    #41168

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Reg,

    Gary Larson’s The FarSide was always hysterically ingenius. I always thought his cartoon about “Gross Stories” depicted what kids would tell around the camp fire when people stop believing in the supernatural.

    “Gross Stories”

    #41169

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    PopeBeanie,

    Have you tried fava beans with that? (Just thinking this reply might be a clever way to introduce another nuance wrt our evolution-related meat-eating behaviors.)

    Nope, no fava beans nor a nice Chiante. 🤪

    And I believe I’ve mentioned before that cannibalism, by it’s very nature, could never be a sustainable way of living for any species.

    Not only does eating brains spread brain-damaging diseases, which adversely affects survival practices for individual members, but cannibalism would narrow the gene pool of the species which would make for less adaptability in the face of changing environmental conditions.

    This may be just idle speculation, but I’ve heard it said that part of the Reason the Romans persecuted Christians is because they heard this talk of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus and thought it was a cannibal cult.

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling
    #41172

    Unseen
    Participant

    PopeBeanie,

    Have you tried fava beans with that? (Just thinking this reply might be a clever way to introduce another nuance wrt our evolution-related meat-eating behaviors.)

    Nope, no fava beans nor a nice Chiante. 🤪 And I believe I’ve mentioned before that cannibalism, by it’s very nature, could never be a sustainable way of living for any species. Not only does eating brains spread brain-damaging diseases, which adversely affects survival practices for individual members, but cannibalism would narrow the gene pool of the species which would make for less adaptability in the face of changing environmental conditions. This may be just idle speculation, but I’ve heard it said that part of the Reason the Romans persecuted Christians is because they heard this talk of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus and thought it was a cannibal cult.

    I always thought of human flesh as “nature’s perfect food,” with all the needed dietary necessities in perfect balance.

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