Sunday School

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

Is some of it sort of OK when compared to the severe cases?

OK, it’s on a spectrum from severe to more severe.  If boys knew this, it might make them think twice if their behaviour is shown to be on a spectrum with rape.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Simon,

It would be good if the innocent weren’t so sensitive, because they shouldn’t mind being tarred with a brush because of the seriousness of the peril and danger for women coming from a minority of men.

If violent crime such as rape is a concern, then it is all the more pressing to not tar the innocent with the guilty.

As Penn & Teller rightly pointed out on capital punishment, for every innocent person on Death Row, there is (at least) one person who committed murder still on the streets. The same principle applies with rape too.

It’s a False Dilemma Fallacy to say Justice = 1 innocent versus 100 guilty or vice-versa. We uphold the innocent to bring justice to the guilty and we go after the guilty to protect the innocent and should use rational thinking minds and evidence all the way.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Simon,

But realistically, men aren’t actually being accused of being rapists, just of being dangerous, which I think is really a fair point. It’s clear that men as a species are potentially lethal to women. So, men should just suck it up if women are suspicious of them – it’s rational for women to be that way.

I wouldn’t categorically knock being “dangerous.”. It takes good people capable of being “dangerous” to fight evil people who are dangerous, such as rapists.

One of the themes and messages of the Sci-Fi TV show Firefly and the spin-off movie Serenity is that those who want to take the “dangerous” out of human beings typically want to hog it all for themselves…and it can have horrific unintended consequences.

I won’t spoil the plots of these. Just watch and learn if you wish.

Also, men are the physically stronger (and potentially lethal) ones, so they kind of have a duty to get the kid gloves out physically when dealing with women.

That biological truth ruled the day before Samuel Colt made his “Great Equalizer”. Now, thanks to that beautiful creation, the 98-pound little old lady in tennis shoes can take down a man as big and wide as a door. Something to seriously consider when dealing with the crime of rape.

• This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Addendum

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

OK, it’s on a spectrum from severe to more severe…

I find that this way of looking at it can miss a crucial point. It is common for the legal system to see it like this and this filters the way society views sexual violence. But this spectrum is not real. It is an arbitrary and subjective way of looking at it that ignores the victims view point.

I know several women who have been the subject of sexual violence. The girl molested and groped by a drunken creep can have her life impacted as much as a victim of rape can.  Both can end up drained from being hyper-vigilant and have their daily lives impacted by similar levels of trauma.

The legal system is still primitive in many countries. I know of a case where a man was tried and jailed for rape. Months later he was charged with the same crime against another woman. The judge gave him a concurrent sentence even though he had been much more violent this time. When the second victim, who had waived her anonymity, was asked by a journalist if she thought she had received justice, she replied; My rape was the free one.

I remember hearing a woman who is a survivor of domestic abuse say that it was not the punch that hurt her. It was living her life not knowing when the next punch would happen that was more agonizing.  Being punched was almost a relief because she knew she would be OK for a few days but then the fear would start to creep into her mind again…….

So, on the spectrum of severity which is of greater severity…A slap to the face today or no slap to the face today?

[DavisModerator]

See, Robert is a prime example of covering up and pretending rape culture isn’t a problem (especially with his toxic tropes like “cat calling” can be okay though “not if he is ugly” bullshit). And he is more progressive than a lot of men. It is a prime illustration of how much progress is left to be made.

In my ice hockey locker room, I hear guys joking about raping women as though it’s not a big deal. Jokes about how they have coerced drunken women into doing things they likely regretted (with high fives) and sharing tactics on how they can manipulate women into doing things. I know some are uncomfortable with it but don’t say anything. I have been on the receiving end of sexual coercion. It is very easy to go along with things because it is easier for many reasons. Fortunately I fight back. So many don’t. Rape culture is fucking real Robert. Wake the fuck up and adjust your attitudes. The boys club cannot quite get away with what they used to. This club has to sacrifice a small bit of “joking” and laddish culture so that victims can at last feel safe, not be coerced or raped with impunity and truly engage in all relations and sexual interaction with clear consent.

• This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  Davis.
• This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  Davis.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

So, on the spectrum of severity which is of greater severity…A slap to the face today or no slap to the face today?

A slap or a rape.  There’s a spectrum of something going on there, perhaps in terms of intrusiveness of boundaries and injury caused.  It’s objective: the facts of what happened.  But the subjective response can be anything, and it’s likely to be negative.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Davis wrote:

I hear guys joking about raping women as though it’s not a big deal. Jokes about how they have coerced drunken women into doing things they likely regretted (with high fives) and sharing tactics on how they can manipulate women into doing things.

It’s difficult, but challenging these things goes a long way.  People know that rape is a crime, and how would they like to be known as a rapist?

[_Robert_Participant]

You want to see “rape culture” just go to a Muslim country where age 13 girls are sold to bald, old Mohammud. That’s OK, right @davis because you are sooo progressive. He can have her stoned when she gets too old on some trumped-up charge,

No one here thinks rape or violence against ANYONE is OK. Around here the women complain men don’t approach them. So many guys just don’t want some “only fans” content creator. It’s not rape culture, its divorce culture and well since the man will get it in the ass, I guess you could still call it rape culture. It’s so great that now we have so many more unmarried, uncommitted, lonely people.

[_Robert_Participant]

And of course, when you have so many who will vote for the scumbag Trump, perhaps that is because much of the population is considered “toxic”.

The far left may want to look in the mirror to see who it is that will get Trump back in power.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Rape culture is pretty much defined as a spectrum of behaviour that wilfully breaches somebody’s intimate and sexual rights of consent and self-determination.

[_Robert_Participant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Rape culture is pretty much defined as a spectrum of behaviour that wilfully breaches somebody’s intimate and sexual rights of consent and self-determination.

Nah. The word “culture” implies that such behavior is acceptable by our society. It is not acceptable in my culture. Neither is making false accusations; however those crimes go unpunished.

[_Robert_Participant]

I’m sure she is very willful.

https://youtube.com/shorts/i0H56lVlObw?si=t5b6Jx_ySBkRMGFs

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

_Robert_ wrote:

The word “culture” implies that such behavior is acceptable by our society.

I’m using “culture” in the meaning of a shared set of values, practices, knowledge, etc., of a group.  It’s morally neutral.  However, it contains its own version of morality.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

_Robert_ wrote:

It is not acceptable in my culture.

And yet it goes on in every culture, a lot.  The spectrum begins with manipulation, coercion, violating boundaries, and potentially ends in rape.  Boys at school, and maybe everyone, needs to understand the connection.  They’re a matter of degree (objectively) and more or less devastating (subjectively).

[UnseenParticipant]

I briefly dated a girl who told me she couldn’t orgasm unless she was “taken.” I take that to mean the oxymoronic “consensual rape.”

The point is, there is no such thing as a rule that fits every case. That said, “No means no” is a good rule.

In my work in the porn industry I wouldn’t coerce a model to do anything she didn’t want to do (they would draw what seemed like nonsensical lines in the sand on occasion). However, if she did say no, rather than attempting to force or browbeat her into doing what I was asking, I’d ask if she could articulate a reason, and more than once a mutually satisfactory compromise was reached. However, if no compromise was found, I’d drop it.

[Author]

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