The Atheist Agora

What matters – actions or consequences?

This topic contains 102 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Unseen 3 months, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 13 posts - 91 through 103 (of 103 total)
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  • #40902

    Davis
    Moderator

    In the case of morality, the job in hand is to collaborate to thrive and survive together

    Yikes.

    #40904

    Unseen
    Participant

    In the case of morality, the job in hand is to collaborate to thrive and survive together

    Yikes.

    #40906

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    The word “needlessly” is not necessary because people do act in selfish ways. By that I mean they act to achieve their own interests first. They do not act to “ideal standards” to achieve “optimum outcomes”.

    There’s nothing wrong in putting one’s own interests first.  In fact, evolutionary ethics is based on inclusive fitness (the fitness of the individual).  It’s a case by case basis, how much we need to take care of ourselves, and how much we need to take care of others, in a given situation.  If someone is acting for their own benefit – if they are clever, they will still act according to ideal standards, so as to achieve the optimum result for themselves.

    Due to the relative nature of morality and the deterministic aspect behind our actions we cannot settle for a “one size fits all” moral theory.

    Morality isn’t one thing and can’t be sliced up in a single way.  But the various parts form a coherent whole.

    Dal and ice cream were never meant to go together: that would be a culinary abomination.  But intentions, actions and consequences are inescapably connected in real life.

    All these things may look disparate, but they can be described and placed within a coherent picture.

     

    #40907

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    people do act in selfish ways … the Problem of Evil

    Evil or moral badness is defined as people acting selfishly at the needless expense of others.  If they needed to be selfish, it wouldn’t be seen as bad.

    We could say that evil is the worst of this: when someone deliberately hurts others for the enjoyment of it.

    #40908

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Jesus bloody donkey crackers. What happened to you Simon? Where did you go wrong?

    Apparently, studying philosophy, and philosophers, makes people dogmatic and closed-minded towards doing new philosophy.  People are allowed to do new philosophy.  It’s interesting.

    #40909

    Davis
    Moderator

    Yes Simon, clearly I am just stubborn in my old ways. I am just afraid of your revolutionary, internally consistent, clear and intelligible system that will smash the same ole shit and harbour in a completely new way of doing things. I am simply just afraid of such Earth shattering ideas such as:

    • Morality isn’t one thing and can’t be sliced up in a single way.  But the various parts form a coherent whole.
    • In the case of morality, the job in hand is to collaborate to thrive and survive together
    • “no good comes of no good”.
    •  a moral principle is an ideal way to be cooperative
    • the way we behave towards ourselves can be seen as moral or immoral – as far as it affects others

    What profound nuggets of insight

    #40911

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    They’re all good points.  Can you refute them?

    #40916

    Unseen
    Participant

    Simon, you’ve become something akin to a Deepak Chopra woo generator. That’s why I’m limiting my participation in this discussion. You’re like a spider and people who fly into your web end up being enmeshed.

    Not me.

    #40917

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @unseen – morality is fiendishly intricate and interesting.  That’s why so many people spend their time puzzling over it.

    #40918

    Davis
    Moderator

    morality is fiendishly intricate and interesting.  That’s why so many people spend their time puzzling over it.

    And that is the absolute perfectly evasive Chopra like response. Unseen is right…at some point, time to give it a rest. Should have days ago. And………scene.

    #40933

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    You’re like a spider and people who fly into your web end up being enmeshed.

    If there’s a web, it’s not of my making.  I’m just asking straightforward questions, that can be answered straightforwardly.  You and Davis experienced an enmeshing web: Reg barely got sticky.  Ask yourself why is that.

    #40943

    Unseen
    Participant

    (formatting struggles)

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #40945

    Unseen
    Participant

    You’re like a spider and people who fly into your web end up being enmeshed.

    If there’s a web, it’s not of my making. I’m just asking straightforward questions, that can be answered straightforwardly. You and Davis experienced an enmeshing web: Reg barely got sticky. Ask yourself why is that.

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