Unseen

Davis wrote:

ever-greater fitness and adaptation

That is a misconception. As everything else is also adapting, creatures must adapt as well. It is not “ever greater” but adapting to the circumstances of the moment. Organisms may emerge with greater complexity in some cases but not always and that is not the same as greater fitness and ada…

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What Michael and his ilk always leave out is the vast time scales over which evolution happens. A time scale so vast that it allows for some seemingly unlikely things to happen simply coincidentally.

Of course, if he believes the earth is only 4,000 years old…

michael17 wrote:

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM8G9AjMK/ Scientist are already in a quandary as to the origen of the first DNA molecule since it is impossible to occur naturally. Now you have complex nano machines with strategically placed scaffolding operating in all cells.

I suppose your explanation is the more plausible one that a cosmic sorcerer did…[Read more]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Unseen wrote:

Plato’s forms aren’t facts and don’t exist.

They exist as perfect ideals. Are perfect ideals facts? It is a fact that something can be a perfect ideal. But can a perfect ideal itself be a fact? Does it have that status?

I assure you that in Plato the forms enjoy far more facticity than things in the real world…[Read more]

jakelafort wrote:

Lets see. I would include philosophers, neuroscientists, social psychologists and perhaps artificial intelligence. I am saying it is a way to arrive at something reasonable. They wont have the cozy absolutist feelings of a mythical stone tablet with the ten commandments. But it is the best we can do. Just guidance.

You can’t…[Read more]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Unseen wrote:

Like Plato’s forms, they can just exist as metaphysical facts.

Surely you mean metaphysical concepts. A fact is something that by definition has some kind of existence.

Hey, Davis, check this out: Plato’s forms aren’t facts and don’t exist.

jakelafort wrote:

Unseen, the notion of ethical absolutes is as far as i can see chimerical. Sure i see the advantage provided the absolutes are well conceived.

I think experts in various field could use their expertise to draft precepts. They would be far from absolute and incorporate the plasticity of a constitution or any other field where…

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_Robert_ wrote:

jakelafort wrote:

The social contract? Is it an absolute? No. It is a construct. Are ethical precepts or rules absolute? Is there some ethereal zone in which one can find such? Of course not. It is just the application of reason to abstract concepts. However, the conclusion i’ve reached does not invalidate ethical precepts. It s…

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Simon Paynton wrote:

Unseen wrote:

Go back to the example of the expert swimmer who doesn’t want to miss out on the new iPhone but sees someone drowning in a lake on his way. If he has a duty to save that life, where does that duty come from? What makes it a duty?

I believe that a “duty” is 1) what we expect of ourselves; and 2) what other…

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Simon Paynton wrote:

Unseen wrote:

What you believe is irrelevant to this conversation. Maybe it belongs in another discussion but it has no place here. So, unless you want to be ignored by me anyway, you’d better get with the program and discuss the topic at hand. For starters, just say whether you believe in absolutes which are overarching i…

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jakelafort wrote:

The social contract? Is it an absolute? No. It is a construct. Are ethical precepts or rules absolute? Is there some ethereal zone in which one can find such? Of course not. It is just the application of reason to abstract concepts. However, the conclusion i’ve reached does not invalidate ethical precepts. It simply is a m…

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The word duty hasn’t been in the discussion for a while. Can you have any actual duties without a source or criterion that can’t be bargained with? By source, I mean, for example, a deity. By criterion, I mean an ethical absolute.

Go back to the example of the expert swimmer who doesn’t want to miss out on the new iPhone but sees someone drowning…[Read more]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

Craig gives a reasonable explanation of what he means by objective and absolute morality here

Dr. Craig uses “objective” (independent of one’s opinions and desires) and “subjective” (out of one’s opinions and desires) as central to his thinking, but which is a bit outside the discussion of whether overarching…[Read more]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Unseen wrote:

So you disbelieve in ethical absolutes and there is no such thing as actual right and wrong. Right and wrong are contingencies determined by individuals or social groups and are not in any way facts, which can be true or false in the sense of being true or false for everyone, and provably so(?)

I have this…

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Simon Paynton wrote:

Unseen wrote:

Do you believe there are ethical absolutes independent of any facts, those facts including human contingencies like local attitudes and norms about values and behavior, traditions, customs, fears, prejudices, etc.?

I believe that one ethical absolute, that may not be the only one, is a combination of helping in…

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jakelafort wrote:

From Unseen: We are not doing law here but philosophy. I helped with the definition of contingencies because the one you gave was inaccurate. The law part was incidental and included because it was illustrative and easily conceptualized. Apropos of absolutely nothing i have this quote i ascribe to Francois Villon. Not sure if it…

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Simon Paynton wrote:

What I mean is, the facts are arbitrary – they may or may not occur – but what type of morality you get as a result, depends on those facts. I find that this is a problem, and a source of confusion in philosophy – people rely on a certain technical word, which can have several shades of meaning – instead of plain English…

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jakelafort wrote:

No, on that definition of contingencies: Contingencies are things which are but might be otherwise. That word comes up often in law. It aint what is-it is not a state of being. It is about what may occur. I will shoot him in the nuts contingent on that rat bastard ratting me out. What are the contingencies in the springing power…

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_Robert_ wrote:

Our millions and millions of years of development are only about eating other living things and not getting eaten yourself to enable reproduction. Suddenly some monkey-like creatures discovered the universe didn’t really care for all that and wants you to be “good”. Fucking nonsense.

I will put you down as disbelieving in ethic…[Read more]