Atheist Zone | Knowledge | Activity https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/ Activity feed for the group, Knowledge. Thu, 16 Apr 2026 23:48:13 +0000 https://buddypress.org/?v= en-US 30 hourly 2 3160c887283305fced0520d308892971 _Robert_ joined the group Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/activity/p/44908/ Mon, 24 Feb 2025 12:28:12 +0000 0 496cb33e0d4f23ffdb141189da823945 Simon Paynton replied to the topic Mr. Gradgrind was wrong. in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/mr-gradgrind-was-wrong/#post-56421 Mon, 24 Feb 2025 12:25:30 +0000

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:
Your initial belief (before evidence) + new evidence = updated belief.

That sounds very reasonable.

Unseen wrote:
It is not single axioms that strike me as obvious, it is a system in which consequences and premises give one another mutual support.” — Wittgenstein, On Certainty, sec. 141-42

That’s good too.  If ther…[Read more]

]]> 36b71df09f290672f659f061ccd49bf5 Unseen replied to the topic Mr. Gradgrind was wrong. in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/mr-gradgrind-was-wrong/#post-56420 Mon, 24 Feb 2025 00:34:18 +0000 “When we first begin to believe anything, what we believe is not a single proposition, it is a whole system of propositions. (Light dawns gradually over the whole.) / It is not single axioms that strike me as obvious, it is a system in which consequences and premises give one another mutual support.” — Wittgenstein, On Certainty, sec. 141-42

]]> 7c3eedf0d4bbfc7f1d486752d99942e6 Reg the Fronkey Farmer replied to the topic Mr. Gradgrind was wrong. in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/mr-gradgrind-was-wrong/#post-56419 Mon, 24 Feb 2025 00:17:28 +0000 Wordle 1,346 3/6*

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Bayes in action!!

]]> c6425f0c0b98e20bf2364fb22171b082 Reg the Fronkey Farmer replied to the topic Mr. Gradgrind was wrong. in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/mr-gradgrind-was-wrong/#post-56417 Sun, 23 Feb 2025 23:54:20 +0000 Introduction to formal and informal fallacies.

]]> cbab6e15b331d0338e056674a82b246e Reg the Fronkey Farmer replied to the topic Mr. Gradgrind was wrong. in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/mr-gradgrind-was-wrong/#post-56416 Sun, 23 Feb 2025 23:51:46 +0000

]]> 28329173c8964d73d2a97964c2de8d79 Reg the Fronkey Farmer replied to the topic Mr. Gradgrind was wrong. in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/mr-gradgrind-was-wrong/#post-56415 Sun, 23 Feb 2025 23:48:38 +0000 Here is a more detailed explanation of Bayes Theory. Don’t be put off by the Math as the concept is more important if you are new to it.

I guess I should allow for the word “belief” and not just “understanding” as I think we all know the I don’t mean religious belief, i.e. belief that is not open to revision.

Another example:

Think of Bayes’ T…[Read more]

]]> 4e198e5fcff21d1d0e5c3d921633f458 TheEncogitationer replied to the topic Mr. Gradgrind was wrong. in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/mr-gradgrind-was-wrong/#post-56413 Sun, 23 Feb 2025 23:46:52 +0000 Reg,

Just a few practical addendum for teaching these skills in learning and reasoning:

* Put the lessons in any and all possible media, electronic and hard copy.
* Insist that anyone who teaches the lessons equally be able to exercise the lessons and they must not have any guarantee of tenure or sinecure.
*. Don’t make the lessons compulsory;…[Read more]

]]> 1efe973ecbcaaff255717a53b278e19b Reg the Fronkey Farmer replied to the topic Mr. Gradgrind was wrong. in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/mr-gradgrind-was-wrong/#post-56411 Sun, 23 Feb 2025 23:36:50 +0000 @ Unseen – The point you make about Columbus can be used as a basic example of Bayes Theory.  If he had being given new objective information about the location then he could have updated his understanding of what he had discovered. It would have changed his reality.  That is the essence of how Bayes works. It is not “shattering a belief”. It is d…[Read more]

]]> 5d4ee1ca1a4781d7654da003f18100d6 TheEncogitationer replied to the topic Mr. Gradgrind was wrong. in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/mr-gradgrind-was-wrong/#post-56410 Sun, 23 Feb 2025 22:53:45 +0000 Reg,

How humans learn and properly reason is a matter of fact. So it’s not that Gradgrind was wrong, It just that how to learn and reason should be the first fact he teaches

]]> c14de0d5753f2811ec8dc7c7a36a66fd Unseen replied to the topic Mr. Gradgrind was wrong. in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/mr-gradgrind-was-wrong/#post-56409 Sun, 23 Feb 2025 21:35:13 +0000 I don’t know where to fit this in, but…

Christopher Columbus did not actually discover America because he maintained until his death that he had reached some portion of Asia. Doubts were emerging but it was Amerigo Vespucci who fully realized that the Americas were truly something else, calling them a “new world.”

The point: You can only claim…[Read more]

]]> d94b97bdf3eed78c95e6a13e16c98452 Simon Paynton replied to the topic Mr. Gradgrind was wrong. in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/mr-gradgrind-was-wrong/#post-56408 Sun, 23 Feb 2025 20:55:22 +0000 I thought that Bayesian reasoning was about extrapolating “what is” to “what might be”, thereby limiting new ideas.

]]> 00a3dd9c328e1cce4af0cce9283ebb7a Reg the Fronkey Farmer replied to the topic Mr. Gradgrind was wrong. in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/mr-gradgrind-was-wrong/#post-56406 Sun, 23 Feb 2025 20:27:58 +0000 Thanks Simon, Bayesian thinking is all about checking out new ideas. We don’t want kids to hold beliefs, we want them to have “understandings”. Then when a new idea (information) comes along, they will have the skills to reason through it and adapt their understanding accordingly.

Bayesian reasoning, logic, and fallacy recognition would do more…[Read more]

]]> 558c83b2290d71fb190ada28491423c5 Simon Paynton replied to the topic Mr. Gradgrind was wrong. in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/mr-gradgrind-was-wrong/#post-56405 Sun, 23 Feb 2025 20:08:55 +0000 I think that’s brilliant Reg.  I’m not sure about Bayesian thinking though – it seems to repackage “what’s possible” as “based on what’s already the case” – not allowing in new ideas.

]]> cc2952f1138613ba2c1d7dc81f7cca8e Reg the Fronkey Farmer replied to the topic Mr. Gradgrind was wrong. in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/mr-gradgrind-was-wrong/#post-56403 Sun, 23 Feb 2025 20:03:37 +0000 I have more to add but decided to start  with this. Let’s see how it develops.

]]> 759f0fdab4288dc867d5c4dd36517a9a RichRaelian joined the group Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/activity/p/38559/ Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:16:44 +0000 0 f4f0822b35b27f912a20d4b9c8f7a973 Doug Hanlon joined the group Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/activity/p/34013/ Sun, 28 Aug 2022 08:48:52 +0000 0 09e1718115ff95722d367a942ddb9089 Simon Paynton replied to the topic Back to the classic problem in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/back-to-the-classic-problem/#post-33905 Tue, 27 Oct 2020 22:27:56 +0000 I’m told that the Buddha taught that the mind is also a sense organ.  I think that’s true, we can use the mind to know things – to join dots, distill data into knowledge.

]]> 0c0430a7c7866032f3751a50dca6f825 PopeBeanie posted an update in the group Knowledge: ARRRRRRGGGG!!!! @unseen, I'm sorry... I did NOT delete the […] https://atheistzone.com/activity/p/24428/ Tue, 27 Oct 2020 22:24:29 +0000 ARRRRRRGGGG!!!!
@unseen, I’m sorry… I did NOT delete the update that you posted a few days ago, but then in the process of trying to explain what happened, I DID accidentally your newest update, along with my own klusterf#^%Y of an explanation. This update section is frustrating for you and I both. So I’ll just post the explanation in again,…[Read more]

]]> 0 0f30a44ee1f95a8b5c650069c525112e Simon Paynton replied to the topic Back to the classic problem in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/back-to-the-classic-problem/#post-33901 Tue, 27 Oct 2020 21:41:27 +0000

Kristina wrote:
I think it speaks to a certain reality of what it means to be correct or to know things.

Someone said, there are at least two kinds of truth: 1) “correspondance”, where a proposition accurately captures reality; 2) “consistency”, where a proposition is logically consistent with other propositions that are known to have…[Read more]

]]> 0446541784e910a46094b06040b973d4 Kristina replied to the topic Back to the classic problem in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/back-to-the-classic-problem/#post-33893 Tue, 27 Oct 2020 19:06:07 +0000 We run into a problem with the term ‘correct’. We need parameters for applying it. Correctness is relative to a number of variables such as desired outcome, acceptable margin of error, methodological limitations etc.

What is it she needs to know in this example? Does she need to know specifically the number of books as accurately and individually…[Read more]

]]> 620bf84b3c9971c430206aa13adc1ce0 --- joined the group Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/activity/p/24410/ Tue, 27 Oct 2020 18:22:46 +0000 0 175eac40b2ebb3aa5e6c9de3b3bb1880 Simon Paynton joined the group Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/activity/p/24357/ Sun, 25 Oct 2020 20:42:04 +0000 0 ff086e2d18efd07acc35b3a13f81beb6 Davis replied to the topic Back to the classic problem in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/back-to-the-classic-problem/#post-33811 Sun, 25 Oct 2020 12:53:48 +0000 Sigh

]]> e190473a24d2f4e7c1b1637efa58d007 PopeBeanie replied to the topic Back to the classic problem in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/back-to-the-classic-problem/#post-33810 Sun, 25 Oct 2020 08:52:00 +0000 Thinking the brick was a book was just an incorrect assumption. She didn’t know that she was only seeing 14 books, and neither did she know that one or more books were hidden.

So she didn’t really know the correct book count (even though she knew how to count up to 15), she just accidentally and incorrectly perceived 15 books while one or more…[Read more]

]]> 1f4d4b6b132e24eb532c53c7fcd285e9 Ivy replied to the topic Back to the classic problem in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/back-to-the-classic-problem/#post-33806 Sun, 25 Oct 2020 07:53:18 +0000 I answered your question @Davis. Whether you liked my answer is a separate question.

]]> d4903d0359a26e7615208a724f16199e Davis replied to the topic Back to the classic problem in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/back-to-the-classic-problem/#post-33805 Sun, 25 Oct 2020 07:37:17 +0000 Sorry Ivy but answer the question as I posed it…you did not.

]]> f2123a290528406311c8ee17c1f96267 PopeBeanie joined the group Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/activity/p/24331/ Sun, 25 Oct 2020 06:34:45 +0000 0 813586207b960582d7c3ce4f66e0d724 Ivy replied to the topic Back to the classic problem in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/back-to-the-classic-problem/#post-33800 Sun, 25 Oct 2020 04:20:21 +0000 @Davis I did answer your question.

]]> c2cb995b01d69316d3eb46fe0c206471 TheEncogitationer joined the group Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/activity/p/24328/ Sun, 25 Oct 2020 04:15:47 +0000 0 20de467cfed235f82e06c94f1b42038c Davis replied to the topic Back to the classic problem in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/back-to-the-classic-problem/#post-33798 Sun, 25 Oct 2020 02:48:01 +0000 Thanks Unseen for answering the question. That’s an interesting explanation.

Ivy, I wish you had have actually answered the question as I had posed it. For example: is being correct contingent on knowing something? Can you truly be correct if it is only out of luck? It is a little similar to the stopped clock effect (where a stopped clock is…[Read more]

]]> ddb9f1fce7594b9ad209baeabfb6c81f Ivy replied to the topic Back to the classic problem in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/back-to-the-classic-problem/#post-33797 Sun, 25 Oct 2020 00:59:00 +0000 I think that yes ultimately she was correct, but she was lucky that there was a book behind the brick. Had there not been then she would not have been correct. How is that so complicated?

 

People “think” they “know” a lot of things that they really don’t.

 

I’m not sure what the discussion was a couple of years ago, perhaps you could provi…[Read more]

]]> 5b91ca4082b908896af266810fe40a31 Belle Rose joined the group Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/activity/p/24325/ Sun, 25 Oct 2020 00:53:39 +0000 0 90a1b583142b76e854df7b8d5257182b Reg the Fronkey Farmer joined the group Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/activity/p/24324/ Sat, 24 Oct 2020 22:54:49 +0000 0 d642fa4c3b827279262304e88bb0047c Unseen posted an update in the group Knowledge: As with many questions, "knowledge" is a more complicated […] https://atheistzone.com/activity/p/24323/ Sat, 24 Oct 2020 22:54:40 +0000 As with many questions, “knowledge” is a more complicated topic than it seems. It is used different ways at different times by different people and for different reasons and uses.

However, there really are only two kinds of knowledge, aren’t there?

1) Certain knowledge and 2) contingent knowledge

1) If I’m wrong about a simple arithmetic…[Read more]

]]> 0 7e885814e2fc7f38773c4c56a1178fda Unseen joined the group Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/activity/p/24322/ Sat, 24 Oct 2020 20:55:50 +0000 0 44d5da7a1c6d319109b9a0c053be3a89 Bio Bill joined the group Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/activity/p/24318/ Sat, 24 Oct 2020 18:05:54 +0000 0 e9e1940112835c0d0d608c1e1a71cab5 JadeBlackOlive joined the group Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/activity/p/24315/ Sat, 24 Oct 2020 17:44:44 +0000 0 8978fc37ec6fc18f51980577a6db72ef Davis started the topic Back to the classic problem in the forum Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/groups/knowledge/forum/topic/back-to-the-classic-problem/ Sat, 24 Oct 2020 13:28:15 +0000 It’s been a few years since we visited this question. Perhaps a few people’s “minds” have changed on the issue. I’ll frame the question slightly differently from last time.

Someone is counting books on her bookshelf (from a distance) and counts 15 books. Little did she know one of the objects she thought was a book was a brick. Was she correct…[Read more]

]]> b73d9ca2db85c9cb7154b2877dd39a8d Davis created the group Knowledge https://atheistzone.com/activity/p/24309/ Sat, 24 Oct 2020 13:20:30 +0000 0