Freethinkers Must Be Free Spirits, In My Opinion

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This topic contains 10 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  loganharris 2 hours, 18 minutes ago.

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  • #59778

    loganharris
    Participant

    Are the words “free-thinker” and “free spirit” synonymous? I think they are. I came to this conclusion after 40 years of watching people come and go in my city’s free-thought community. Two people in particular came across as free-thinkers at first, but after getting to know them well I saw that they were anything but free-thinkers. This has been a valuable lesson in my life and I’d like to share it.

    Sammy grew up in a Pentecostal family. As he described it, his father felt it was a religious duty to dominate the family, and he did so rather cruelly at times. Sammy had an IQ over 130 and a bookish nature, so upon reaching adulthood Sammy was “outta there” figuratively speaking. Sammy became an atheist. Sammy developed an interest in evolution and the “sociobiolgy” of Harvard’s Edward O. Wilson.  Once, he flew across the USA to attend an “American Atheist” convention. Locally, he attended the meetings of our free-thought group, and hung out with us freethinkers.  We enjoyed his company.

    Something happened after a few years. Sammy stopped attending the meetings and stopped associating with us heretics.  A time or two, I heard Sammy speak of free-thinkers with disdain. I was taken aback! I realized that while Sammy had rejected his father’s Creationism, he had NEVER rejected the value his father put on obedience. To Sammy, we were too dim to realize that organized religion had evolved for a reason, and to oppose it so much was a character flaw.

    Sammy remained an atheist but he went his way. He was a Baby Boomer who never much cared for rock ‘n roll music or blue jeans. I wish I had kept in touch with him for one reason: he was an analytical thinker and was the prefect person to discuss a wide array of things with. However, Sammy was a nerd, and he’d tell you so. He didn’t have much affinity for other people. He didn’t engage in many pro-social behaviors. But, he was a sincere person. My next example was anything but sincere.

    Glenn had the same bachelor’s degree that Sammy had. Both were atheists with an interest in science. But, otherwise, they were night and day. Whereas Sammy was a nerd, Glenn had the superficial charm found in “covert narcissists”.  I can’t assert that Glenn met the diagnostic criteria for “narcissist” but I do believe he had quite a few narcissistic traits. Still, Glenn liked being around other people and did pro-social things such as personal favors, and volunteer work. He got up at the podium and spoke. He publicly debated a preacher on the topic of evolution.
    Overall, Glenn was cock-sure of himself.  Think of Star Trek’s Captain Kirk and you have Glenn’s temperament. He could brag without making it sound like bragging, and on occasion he appeared to lack a healthy level of  empathy for other people. Worst of all, Glenn often resorted to manipulation. Perhaps most importantly of all, Glenn saw the world in black & white, which is an odd thing for a “freethinker” to do.  At a gathering we all went to in another city, one guy remarked of Glenn’s economic beliefs, “Ideology is for idiots.”

    Sam Vankin is an expert on narcissism, and when I heard him describe how narcissists and psychopaths hijack social movements my mind shouted to me, “That’s a bit like Glenn!”  Narcissists love those podiums that are at every meeting. They like to take a leadership role. They gain a circle of friends. It pleases their ego.

    One conclusion I came to was that a person can have too much ego to be a freethinker. One needs to be okay with doubt, and ego interferes with that. One needs the ability to think introspectively, and narcissists cannot do much of that.

    When Occupy Wall Street was a thing, I told Glenn of something I had read and his response was revealing. In California, some longshoremen were refusing to unload shipping containers, as a way of expressing solidarity with the Occupy movement. Immediately, Glenn remarked that if businessmen started to lose a lot of money, a hit man might be employed to put an end to those Occupy leaders responsible. Glenn did not make the remark in a matter-of-fact way. My feeling was that Glenn felt that such a murder could be justified. Does that sound like a freethinker to you?

    There has to be more to being a freethinker than being an atheist and liking science.

    Does a freethinker dismiss Noam Chomsky’s book “Manufacturing Consent” as criticism of business and probably not worth a read? Glenn seemed to.  Glenn always told us that he was “socially liberal and fiscally conservative”, but merely advocating legal marijuana, gay marriage and abortion does not a liberal make.

    When you attend gatherings of freethinkers, ask yourself which persons are also free spirits.

    • This topic was modified 6 days, 8 hours ago by  loganharris.
    #59780

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Freethinker is a misnomer. No such animal.

    If by freethinker you mean one who rejects conventions, norms and ideologies then sure there are those who appear to think independently as opposed to adopting the aformentioned like a child born into a cult or orthodox community and completely brainwashed.

    “my mind shouted to me, “That’s a bit like Glenn!”

    See that? Sense of dualism. Free at last. Free at last until our last gasp.

    #59782

    A free spirit can be apolitical, impulsive and even intellectually lazy. They can actively advocate for (or against) weed, gay marriage, and abortion. These are positions that are arrived at. How were they reached? Were they inherited from family or from the culture and environment someone grew up in or were they arrived at by not being intellectual lazy?

    A freethinker is defined by method. It is a process. Is that person willing to revise their beliefs, to resist appeals to authority (even ones own prior conclusions) and to welcome “doubts” when they appear? Socrates (and Feynman) would argue for epistemic humility. Not in the sense of being modest but of being aware that one’s beliefs (positions) are liabilities until they are stress tested, no quarter given or expected. The ‘elenchus’ only works if we consider self-deception as our primary enemy.

    Sammy rejected Creationism but never rejected obedience.

    He swapped religious authority for functional authority. He believed religion had some evolutionary utility (as many people do) and seems to have concluded, without irony, that opposing it was a flaw. He was neither a  freethinker nor a free spirit. I guess he was a detached rationalist.

    Glenn’s remark about Occupy wasn’t a slip, it was a reveal. When someone casually legitimizes violence to protect “order,” you are not dealing with a freethinker. Like most theists, his moral reasoning is subordinated to external hierarchies.

    One can have too much ego to be a freethinker.

    Yes. Because free-thought requires the ability to say, “I might be wrong”.  A narcissistic personality needs enemies to sneer at and applause without accountability. It is just that being unrestrained of having doubts or self-critique only feels like freedom. It is not. An unencumbered ego is a self-deception that confuses conviction with clarity.

    When you attend gatherings of freethinkers, ask yourself which persons are also free spirits.

    I seek those that embrace an intellectual challenge. I ask myself “Does this person experience my critique of their position as an affront or as opportunity to challenge their views”.

     

    I posted this a few weeks ago:

    To paraphrase myself when debating with a street preacher who did not like having their views challenged.

    “I must respect your beliefs?? Some chance of me doing that when I don’t even respect my own. I don’t believe things in order to feel safe. You don’t want your beliefs respected. You want them immune for criticism. Once they are protected from scrutiny, beliefs will metastasize into ideology and when ideology remains unchallenged it always demands power. For me Doubt is mandatory and Confidence is provisional. I call it intellectual adulthood. Anything else is intellectual protectionism. Yes, you have Rights, but your beliefs do not”.

     

    #59783

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I consider myself a free thinker, and other people consider me to be a free spirit.  In my experience, the two tend to go together as people take their free-spiritedness into their thinking.  I consider someone who is not a free thinker to be a dumbass, as it’s an intellectual failing not to be.  So, ideologues are behaving like a dumbass.

    The free-est thinkers are probably scientists and mathematicians, as it’s their job to be guided by facts rather than ideology.

    I think it’s true that a narcissist can’t be a free thinker, as they’re inflexible in their behaviour, and can’t change or learn how to be different.  Also they usually think they’re perfect, which is an intellectual failing, and they see the world through a particular lens (their own interests compared with those of others).

    In the circles I move in, Sam Vaknin is seen as a narcissistic fake, a charlatan.  However I agree that narcissists love to hijack the top spot, as we’re seeing in the USA right now.  I believe that “covert narcissists” can change since they tend to have a light side that wants to change.  Other kinds of narcissists don’t really have that light side.

    #59784

    jakelafort
    Participant

    I like the way you’ve fleshed out a working definition of freethinker. Leave it to Reg to dredge and find gold.

    It is something we ought to aspire to achiece but i doubt 1 in 10k are there or approximate freethinker as aforementioned. How much better would our lives be if it were a way of life for the majority?

    Praise of faith makes me puke and the atheists who say look at me I don’t believe in your beliefs but i am a good guy or girl. Religion or secular ideology tends to make people bad actors. It robs humans of their empathy and critical thinking. I know in many cases there is nothing to rob.

    In Iran it is impossible to ascertain how many have been executed. However it is pretty safe to say it is ideology that is behind the massacre. Some estimates are already at 100k. Would the regime go full on German style holocaust on its own? i have also read there are some defections from the regime. Too depraved even for the brain dead to handle or carry out their duties.

    How about this famous lady? Is she a freethinker?

    https://www.jpost.com/international/article-885877

    #59785

    Scientists and mathematicians are trained to follow evidence, yes. But that does not automatically make them the free-est thinkers. In fact, their training often pulls in the opposite direction. Most working scientists spend their careers inside an accepted framework, not questioning it. Richard Feynman was rare not because he was smart, but because he refused to protect ideas from criticism, especially his own. Most scientists are not Feynman. Science is the best tool we have for correcting wrong ideas but scientist are human and have biased opinions and can be tribal in their own way. Thomas Kuhn (paradigm shifts) was correct when he said “normal science is mostly puzzle-solving within dogma”.

    The freest thinkers are not defined by their profession. They’re defined by their behavior. IMO there are certain traits that makest the freest. In no particular order;

    A freethinker must be willing to abandon cherished ideas and any long held beliefs. They must be comfortable with uncertainty and have no problem saying ” I do not know”.  Feynman (again) “I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it’s much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong.” That sounds poetic but it is a ruthless approach to take to all epistemic methodology.  (You can’t handle the truth!) Admitting ignorance is honest and having an unanswered question means you are still keeping reality in play, rather than living in or with some ideological delusion. Wrong answers are worse than ignorance because they block correction. This way ignorance is temporary but bullshit just calcifies the mind.

    There is also what I call the “Shoemaker Fallacy” where scientists will veer into other domains and claim expertise there too.

    Keep examining your assumptions.

     

     

    #59788

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    #59789

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    To Sammy, we were too dim to realize that organized religion had evolved for a reason, and to oppose it so much was a character flaw.

    But everything happens for a reason.  That’s a dumb reason to follow religion.  It evolved for all kinds of reasons and purposes.  So what?

    #59790

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    To Sammy, we were too dim to realize that organized religion had evolved for a reason, and to oppose it so much was a character flaw.

    Even if it was for worthy goals, there are other ways of achieving those worthy goals, and we don’t have to use religion.  Unless one of those goals is “worshiping God”, in which case you’re religious anyway.

    #59847

    loganharris
    Participant

    Glenn seemed to think that a commitment to science and reason made one a freethinker, but I see that as overly simplistic. As Einstein said, “Imagination is everything.” A freethinker needs to be creative and imaginative. Knowing formulas isn’t enough.

    As for Sammy, I still wonder why he was okay with taking no action to oppose the excesses of organized religion. I could have said to him: Okay, religion will always be with us, and it serves some purpose, while it is debatable if the service can’t be gained in another fashion. But why are YOU, Sammy, going to allow the religious right to dominate our society, unopposed?

    Alas, Sammy is no longer with us. Frankly, I heard Vaush say something to the effect that evangelicals don’t do society or perhaps he meant they seldom work for the public good. Sammy lacked a social instinct, so maybe he just didn’t give a fuck. Shameful, in my book.

    Sam Vankin (who isn’t perfect) said that narcissists become characatures of the people they admire. That could explain Glenn thinking that all being a freethinker required was to declare a love of science and lightly unregulated capitalism. And being an atheist.

    Both Glenn and Sammy were mighty dull, cold people. Neither was a freethinker.

    #59848

    loganharris
    Participant

    PS/ To clarify my last post, Sammy remained an atheist to his dying day, but he kept a temperament rather like some evangelicals. He cared a lot about obedience and conforming, while being asococial and not engaging with any effort for the common good.

    Glenn longed for barely regulated capitalism. He loved everything about the Tea Party movement, except its religiosity.

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