Did you forget the Taliban?

[Simon Paynton]

“they are ineffective under-achievers”

– both of them make the situation far worse, that they are claiming to be helping, with no redeeming benefit, beyond making the concepts of “men’s rights” (pffft) and “everybody except men’s rights” (hmmm) well known.

This is classic narcissism: to bring the roof down on everyone’s heads, just so that someone can get their personal jollies in the moment.

[Strega]

Belle, we need to understand how an innocent baby turned into a terrorist, and how to attempt to repair what humans have done to humans.  Humans are not animals in the perjurative sense.  (We are all animals biologically).  It is fear that makes us angry.  We have to understand the thought processes of the people whose actions cause us fear.  Then we have to start to effect repair.  If you think there is nothing to understand, you become part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.

[David Boots]

Any extreme culture that endorses violence is not good for society as whole. It is not that long ago that catholic/protestant terrorism in Ireland dominated the news daily.

Does islam present a special case? Arguably it does and for two reasons. The first being that the koran represents the last and unalterable word of god. The second is that the koran is a literal document that is thought to be perfect.

Some people suggest that it is not possible to re-interpret islam but rather its adherents are either observant or non observant of its tenets.

Given that islam is a large religion and it is growing; and given that modern culture is changing at such a rapid pace we should at least give some thought to the proposition that islam is indeed a special case.

[David Boots]

Simon Paynton wrote:

You might find this article interesting, by a “progressive” American Muslim written in 2015.

Well there you go. Perhaps there is hope after all.

I had not heard of Asra Q. Nomani before but she must have some courage. She says ‘I wont stop writing’.

Why not email her with a supportive message – her email is asra@asranomani.com

 

[Simon Paynton]

It has to be a drawback when people are forbidden from thinking creatively.  It can’t be a coincidence that apparently, the Moslem world hasn’t contributed any learning for centuries.  There was a time, 1000 years ago, when it was the intellectual centre of the Western world, but that was back when they were allowed to think.

Nomani is the kind of person I want to work with for my website, but I’m not at that stage at the moment.

[.]

@Strega

I do believe that in some cases there is a point of no return though. When you get to the point of kicking around human heads for sport you are beyond solutions.

[Simon Paynton]

@bellerose – but what are you going to do with those people?  They can be compared with the child soldiers in the Congo or other conflicts – they were manipulated into it, and had to be rehabilitated.  More violence is going to lead to more violence.  Instead of escalating the situation, it needs to be ramped back down, otherwise there’s only an endless cycle of recrimination.

[Strega]

Belle, the future is changeable, the past less so.  However, if you feel extermination is the answer, I’d suggest you review history to see how that worked out.  Have you ever seen any of the North Korea propaganda against the USA?  Whilst to you it may seem ridiculous and untrue, to many there it is seen as fact.  Why do you think the USA is singled out?  It doesn’t seem to be American domestic policy that generates such fear and hatred.

Only when you can suspend your own fear and hatred can you contemplate thoughts on how we got here and how to alter our direction as a species, not as a tribe.

[Simon Paynton]

This seems relevant: from an obituary of Charles Manson (Jeff Guinn):

Demagogues do these things to attract their followers.  First, they exaggerate cultural concerns.  In Manson’s case, he took some of the race riots in the major cities, where Blacks were destroying their own ghetto property, they weren’t raging out killing white people in nice neighbourhoods, but Manson could take this violence and exaggerate it to the point where everyone he talked to would be getting the sense that any minute now, a Black Panther was probably going to be killing you, right after he got through raping your wife and your mother.  Demagogues exaggerate social problems, it’s the first thing.  The second thing they do is they announce, I’m the only one who can solve this problem.  That’s how they get the followers: you’ve got to come with me, I’m the only one who can save you.  Then they try to isolate their followers from hearing conflicting opinions, either by shutting out the media, or in Manson’s case, taking their followers to isolated places, Death Valley, where the only voice they can hear is your own.  And finally, demagogues convince their followers that this is a matter of us against them.  We’re the good people, and anyone who’s not with us is evil and the enemy.  Manson did all these things, and it’s classic.  If we learn that, if we think about that, maybe we can apply it to the demagogues who’ve come since.

[.]

@Strega I didn’t suggest extermination but sometimes there is nothing like a good old fashioned ass kicking.

[Strega]

Ass-kicking to teach non-violence?  Sort of like fucking for virginity…

[.]

I don’t think men like that would ever change. Ever.

[.]

There’s nothing to teach them. It’s too late

[.]

I never used to believe in that either but I’ve learned better

[Strega]

Why ‘better’ and not ‘differently’?  The American attitude towards terrorism appears to be fear. I lived in London for forty years of IRA terrorism.  We stopped being terrified and began to heal ourselves.  Then we extended that slowly.  What we did not do, was to call anybody less than human.  Dehumanizing was what the fuhrer did to Jews before he started the ‘cleansing’.  Dehumanizing is no path forwards.  We ARE all human.

If I had a simple solution, so would everyone else.  It’s not simple.  It’s incredibly complicated.  It involves poverty, starvation, disease, territory, power struggles and erroneous ideology. However, fear is not the key.  Hatred is not the key.  How can hatred and fear lead to improvement?

[Author]

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