If there is no God, how to explain mathematics?

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This topic contains 118 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  tom sarbeck 3 months, 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 76 through 90 (of 119 total)
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  • #10544

    tom sarbeck
    Participant

    FYI:

    “If the red shifts are a Doppler shift . . . the  observations as they stand lead to the anomaly of a closed universe, curiously small and dense, and, it may be added, suspiciously young.

    “On the other hand, if red shifts are not Doppler effects, these anomalies disappear and the region observed appears as a small, homogeneous, but insignificant portion of a universe extended indefinitely in both space and time.“

    — Edwin Hubble, 1937 Royal Astronomical Society Monthly Notices

    #10545

    Strega
    Moderator

    The laws of physics and the functions of mathematics are like grids that we overlay on the universe so we can use grid references to talk about specific parts.  The universe itself doesn’t care.

    #10547

    tom sarbeck
    Participant

    Strega, thank you.

    #10548

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Strega, i dont get why you and others have said the universe does not care.  A rock or bottle of gatorade does not care either.  An entity must be sentient before it can care, no?

    I don’t get either the position that math and physics is an artificial construct.  Instead it is there and will be there with or without our appreciation of it.  Sure,  loads of our cosmology is perhaps tantamount to mythology.  Our reaching for the stars does not reduce or alter the mathematical nature of reality.

    #10550

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @jakelafort – I think you could say the same about God.

    I disagree that without a human observer then mathematics is absent.  The potential for mathematical entities exists, in the same way that the potential for real phenomena exists.  But yes, mathematical entities require an imaginer to imagine them.

    #10553

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Simon i never said that without a human observer mathematics is absent.  I said the opposite.

    #10556

    Strega
    Moderator

    It’s like claiming inches would exist even if there were no human.  Yes, distances of what we call an inch would exist, but not in any unique way.  We invented mechanisms (maths, physics, etc) to quantify and understand stuff.  Because ‘stuff’ is determinable, that doesn’t give our mechanisms of determination any objective status, outside of human comprehension.

    #10557

    Strega
    Moderator

    @jakelafort saying the universe doesn’t care, is another way of saying it is unaffected, unmoved, and oblivious to the thing being referred to.

    #10558

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Strega, i still think it is weird for atheists to say the universe does not care.

    As to your statement i agree.  Or do I?  Really not sure. Perhaps other sentient life has a similar abstraction .  But you are not addressing the nature of reality .  Is the cosmos only possible if it is imbued with mathematics, if mathematics explains it?

    My position is yes.  We have extracted the tool from the universe but the universe operates and is subsumed by and in math.

    #10560

    Davis
    Participant

    Because ‘stuff’ is determinable, that doesn’t give our mechanisms of determination any objective status, outside of human comprehension.

    Wow. Strega summed up my multiple endless paragraphs of babble…and she did it all in one sentence. Bravo!!!

    #10561

    Davis
    Participant

    @jakelafort saying the universe doesn’t care, is another way of saying it is unaffected, unmoved, and oblivious to the thing being referred to.

    ^^^^^^^ What Strega said  ^^^^^^^^^

    #10564

    tom sarbeck
    Participant

    jake, you will someday free yourself from your own torture chamber (in which you are the only torturer).

     

    #10565

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Tom, who appointed you swami?

    #10566

    tom sarbeck
    Participant

    jake, I’m not hindu. I’m also not religious. I am however a male teacher.

     

    #10567

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Tom i know you are a male…Tom gives that away…I know you are an atheist…the site gives that away….but if you think i was calling you a swami for realzies your acumen is lacking and you ought to look for a different profession.

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