Justice is fairness, but what about sports?

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This topic contains 12 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Davis 1 month, 1 week ago.

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  • #32785

    Unseen
    Participant

    Transgender and gender-confused people present us with some thorny issues. Probably the first that comes to mind has to do with public restrooms. I think probably most of us believe that a person who’s fully undergone the sexual reassignment surgery to use the restroom for their new gender.

    What about the sexually confused person (is there a better term than confused, which seems to imply dysfunction?) who believes their psychological gender mismatches their physiology? Should a biological male who feels like a female be welcome in female restrooms?

    Those issues are sticky enough, but it’s in sports where the shit, as they say, really hits the fan.

    TRANSGENDER ATHLETES ARE having a moment. At all levels of sport, they’re stepping onto the podium and into the headlines. New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard won two gold medals at the Pacific Games, and college senior CeCé Telfer became the NCAA Division II national champion in the 400-meter run. Another senior, June Eastwood, has been instrumental to her cross-country team’s success. At the high school level, Terry Miller won the girls’ 200-meter dash at Connecticut’s state open championship track meet.

    “These recent performances are inherently praiseworthy—shining examples of what humans can accomplish with training and effort. But as more transgender athletes rise to the top of their fields, some vocal opponents are also expressing outrage at what they see as transgender athletes ruining sports for cisgendered girls and women.”

    For those who don’t know the “cis” prefix, it just refers to people who identify in alignment with their biological gender.

    Now, I hesitate to think that anyone changes their sex in order to win accolades by competing as the other sex, but there’s no way to rule that out, either.

    The question arises almost entirely in women’s sports where former males undergo sex reassignment and compete against cisgendered females with bodies that are still largely physically male, giving transgendered males>females a measurable advantage.

    And what about a gender-confused athlete who hasn’t even undergone reassignment?

    If justice is fairness, what is the just way out of these conundrums?

    Try to set aside any feelings you may have about Joe Rogan and/or Jordan Peterson and listen to the points they are making:

    but then, physiological advantages occur even within cisgender athletes. Women always have some testosterone, for example, but some have much more? And some people are born with physical advantages that give them, arguably, an unfair advantage. A 6’8″ woman who could almost compete in men’s basketball, for example.

    • This topic was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Unseen.
    • This topic was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Unseen.
    • This topic was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Unseen.
    #32797

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Sex agnostic public restrooms. It’s not perfect and might not work in some areas, but I think it’s better overall in some areas/institutions for a start. If two restrooms nearby, maybe one could be for parents and children? It’s difficult to enforce, in any case. Took my young daughters (maybe 4 and 6 years old?) to a KOA in Oregon (without Mom) once and we shared a shower. KOA employee knocked on the stall door and told me we had to leave, or he’d call the sheriff. “Company policy”, he said, although I wondered if state or local law had anything to do with it. Man, was I angry about that, and my first thought was that these people must have their own sexual dysfunctions that haunt them and make them want to control all family behaviors. (Can’t remember if or how I explained it to my kids.)

    As for gender-divided sports, I dunno, but feel it’s related to performance enhancing drugs (as you and Rogan point out) issues. Depends a lot on how fans of those sports feel, so maybe let free market decide, except in (say) Olympics. World cultures might decide if/how those issues get worked out, or not. Genetic alterations could be a related issue in the future. I think that competing in a sports category/division after drug, genetic or any surgical enhancement is “cheating”, and I’m not interested in watching that, even if those cheaters had their own category. I would never support freak show competitions, which would be inevitable if a market was to support them. I even think a bit less of Phelp’s wins since he probably benefited from the Marfan Syndrome genome he was born with.

    So there will never be complete “fairness” in sports. Heck, I’m short and rarely watch basketball.

     

    #32798

    Unseen
    Participant

    Maybe there should be two categories of sports, a regular traditional set where everyone conforms to binary birth sex categories and competes free of drugs or other subterfuges, then a parallel set we might call “the asterisk sports” where anything goes. People who’ve undergone sex reassignment, people taking performance enhancing drugs, blood doping, etc. They could even have their own sports like the boat anchor toss. LOL

    #32799

    Davis
    Participant

    I believe that the following solution is the best one:

    People use the bathroom of the gender they identify with.

    But if a people kick up such a stupid god damn trans-phobic fuss then I think the South Park solution is the second best:

    There are three bathrooms. A male and female bathroom and people can use the bathroom of the gender they identify with and the third bathroom (with a single toilet that can only be used one person at a time) is for anyone who cannot handle those rules.

    I think the same should go for sports. Considering sport organizations already have measures in place that control levels of testosterone/estrogen and require multiple doctors/psychologists to validate the gender change, I don’t really see where the problem is. So for Sports: Normal leagues where you play for the gender that you identify with. And a secondary league for anybody who cannot handle that rule. We’ll call it the “making a huge fuss out of a rare and normally inconsequential non-problem” league.

    #32800

    Unseen
    Participant

    a parallel set we might call “the asterisk sports” where anything goes. People who’ve undergone sex reassignment, people taking performance enhancing drugs, blood doping, etc. They could even have their own sports like the boat anchor toss. LOL

    So you basically agree that women should be allowed to compete against verified real women not artificial women, for example and that there should be a separate league or category or whatever for is left over, a league where basically anything goes.

    #32801

    Davis
    Participant

    No Unseen. I said there should be the normal league where people play for the gender they identify with (meaning a transwoman plays on the woman’s team). And another league for people who kick up a fuss and cannot handle living in the 21st century.

    #32802

    Davis
    Participant

    And please be a little more careful with using terms like “artificial woman”.  They aren’t robots created in a laboratory. The term trans-woman communicates the same information without the (admittedly possibly unintended) derogatory connotation.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Davis.
    #32804

    Ivy
    Participant

    I do not agree it comes to women’s UFC or boxing. Anything that involves being punched in the head…or sports where TBI’s are real…UFC is a really tricky one.

    #32805

    Unseen
    Participant

    And please be a little more careful with using terms like “artificial woman”. They aren’t robots created in a laboratory. The term trans-woman communicates the same information without the (admittedly possibly unintended) derogatory connotation.

    I’m just using “artificial” in the sense of something modified using a technique that changes it into something else. in a very fundamental way.

    Maybe you can agree that it’s one thing to undergo surgery that changes your social stimulus value from male to female, but it’s a different thing to take that body, still retaining many male attributes, and use that to become a dominating athlete where females have traditionally competed against the sort of females who’v always been female. Apples to apples not apples to oranges, in other words.

     

    #32806

    Unseen
    Participant

    No Unseen. I said there should be the normal league where people play for the gender they identify with (meaning a transwoman plays on the woman’s team). And another league for people who kick up a fuss and cannot handle living in the 21st century.

    Maybe you can tell us what is fair about a female javelin thrower, for example, having to compete against a male javelin thrower who is an ex-male (physically) and still retains much of her former upper body muscle mass.

    #32807

    Davis
    Participant

    They’ve undergone hormone therapy (which highly reduces testosterone and raises estrogen). Their numbers are also tiny. It’s not like there has been an avalanche of trans-women (please get that right) standing on all the podiums. As you’ve said before, what’s fair about someone born with a better genetic profile competing against someone with someone with a lesser genetic profile? How is that any different than being born a woman in a man’s body who has undergone hormone therapy and genital surgery? Should every athelete be compared by genetic advantage and given extra hormones (or opposite hormones) to compensate? Should trans-men competing in men’s events (which nobody at all complains about) be allowed a generous dose of steroids to compensate?

    If we treat them as women in every other aspect, not doing so in Sports would simply be selective discrimination.

     

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Davis.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Davis.
    #32813

    Unseen
    Participant

    They’ve undergone hormone therapy (which highly reduces testosterone and raises estrogen). Their numbers are also tiny. It’s not like there has been an avalanche of trans-women (please get that right) standing on all the podiums. As you’ve said before, what’s fair about someone born with a better genetic profile competing against someone with someone with a lesser genetic profile? How is that any different than being born a woman in a man’s body who has undergone hormone therapy and genital surgery? Should every athelete be compared by genetic advantage and given extra hormones (or opposite hormones) to compensate? Should trans-men competing in men’s events (which nobody at all complains about) be allowed a generous dose of steroids to compensate? If we treat them as women in every other aspect, not doing so in Sports would simply be selective discrimination.

    Have I actually said that there has been “an avalanche of trans-women…standing on all the podiums”? Where? Trans women are simply not natural women. Why not let man-made “women” compete in their own category? There’s nothing unfair about that, is there?

    Let’s help you think about this in two ways: 1) by considering an analogy and 2) by taking gender out of it since gender might be a distraction, Imagine someone showed up on the chess scene with a scientifically-enhanced brain. Suppose it housed a vast library of classic games along with some algorithms designed to quickly narrow down choices, and that this enhancement was as the result of an operation, and then this person starts competing successfully against 100% natural unenhanced players. Would it help if the enhanced chess player claimed “I always felt like a chess champ as long as I can remember? This operation just helped me bring my abilities in line with my identity” Fair to let this person compete against unenhanced players? We already live in an age when a super-computer can beat a grand master. Now, imagine a super-computer made out of enhanced human flesh and blood.

    Now it’s true that nature itself doesn’t distribute its gifts evenly. Is that an excuse to toss “it’s natural” out the window. Not for me.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Unseen.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Unseen.
    #32819

    Davis
    Participant

    I see unseen. So you’re fine with letting trans people be a woman or man in just about every other way but discriminating against trans-people when it comes to sports. What about LGTBQ+ people? Should they be stuck in their own category? A majority of people around the world don’t consider them “natural” men and women. I also fail to see how “natural” comes into the equation with the production of super atheletes whose diets are based on artificial drugs and nutrients and their training on computer simulations. Seems like they are given a notable “artificial” advantage that has nothing to do with the bodies they were born with in the original “natural” human environment we evolved from. It seems every decade the West is producing what have been called “super freaks of nature” atheletes who have been blessed with diet and training conditions that far exceed anything that came before them with advantages those before could never have dreamed of. So those articifical alterations (yes it is true that there is a limit to accepted articifical chemicals like steriods but that is a very subjectively drawn line) are acceptable but chopping off or adding genitals is not. When you start peddling around “natural” and “artificial” like they are obvious clear cut categories you certainly run into a lot of problems don’t you?

    In any case, numerous countries and sports boards already settled this issue quite some time ago. They are allowed to compete in numerous sports under conditions that measure their hormones and require certification from numerous doctors/psychologists.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Davis.
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