Someone needs a face-saving way out of the war and…in Ukraine and…

[UnseenParticipant]

(Okay, it’s time for me to retire. For the second time in 30 minutes I goofed up the subject line. Please fix by deleting after the first “…”)

it’s not Putin. A prominent German journalist said out loud what many in Europe can see: Ukraine cannot win against the almost limitless resources of Russia.

So, unless we want another endless war using Ukrainians as cannon fodder fighting what is essentially America’s and NATO’s proxy war with Russia, it’s time to invent an excuse to start talking.

Is he right? What do you think?

• This topic was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Unseen.

[_Robert_Participant]

Unseen wrote:

Okay, it’s time for me to retire. ….What do you think?

“Peace in our time”, LOL. As if one can really negotiate with the murderer/liar Putin. LOL.

Nobody is forcing Ukraine to fight but themselves. It is their decision, and it is to everybody’s benefit if Putler goes down in ashes. Old Ivan’s corrupt and rusty military machine has been obviously over-rated and at this point it is not even clear if they can hold what they have taken (if Ukraine gets the help they want.)

There have been lots of recent lessons. The US military couldn’t hold South Vietnam, Afghanistan or Iraqi territory for long, nor could the Russians hold Afghanistan. I read Assad is starting to lose ground in Syria again as the Russians concentrate on Ukraine. Can Russia hold large regions? Maybe…but I think that really depends on Ukraine, and they do seem to understand that. The war game has changed with technology. One motivated guy with a hand-held missile, a drone, or an IED can be incredibly deadly to very expensive ships, tanks, or aircraft.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,

Putin has lost a lot of “face” in this war, and “face” is a precious commodity in his cultural millieu.

In the name of pushing back against NATO expansion (which was never even an option for Ukraine,) he now has Norway and Sweden wanting to join NATO. Moreover, in the name of love for the ethnic Russian people in Ukraine, he has set them against him, as well as provoked unjust anti-Russian sentiment against harmless by-standers.

Finally, while claiming he is “de-Nazifying” Ukraine, he is also attempting to render Russia Jüdenrein because Russians Jews are against the war:

Moscow’s chief rabbi in exile after refusing to back Putin’s war on Ukraine, relative says

Nope. Putin is the one who needs to back down. Much as ya’ll may believe otherwise, that Makarov in his pocket isn’t going to aim and pull it’s own trigger on him. 😁

• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Removing redundant headline
• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Closing tag
• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer.

[UnseenParticipant]

[_Robert_Participant]

Ending the war by appeasement of Putin is a fool’s errand. He has pronounced his vision of a new world order as some sort of re-assemblage of the Soviet Empire. Kiev, Poland, Finland and others do not share that vision. Best to nip this in the bud and show China that land grabs have dire consequences.

[UnseenParticipant]

_Robert_ wrote:

Ending the war by appeasement of Putin is a fool’s errand. He has pronounced his vision of a new world order as some sort of re-assemblage of the Soviet Empire. Kiev, Poland, Finland and others do not share that vision. Best to nip this in the bud and show China that land grabs have dire consequences.

We are paying Ukraine with weapons to do our dying for us. Smart.

[_Robert_Participant]

Unseen wrote:

_Robert_ wrote:

Ending the war by appeasement of Putin is a fool’s errand. He has pronounced his vision of a new world order as some sort of re-assemblage of the Soviet Empire. Kiev, Poland, Finland and others do not share that vision. Best to nip this in the bud and show China that land grabs have dire consequences.

We are paying Ukraine with weapons to do our dying for us. Smart.

Nah, they are saying they don’t wanna live in a Russian shithole. Hell, they are the people who aligned with Germany to escape Russians 80 years ago,

[UnseenParticipant]

_Robert_ wrote:

Nah, they are saying they don’t wanna live in a Russian shithole.

Let’s look at those Russian bread lines, and the stores with all the empty shelves.

Life is so dismal there and there’s nothing to eat. That’s why the people all have distended bellies from starvation and open sores from the foul diseases they all suffer from.

You’re right. It’s a terrible shithole that no Ukrainian could possible want to be afflicted with.

Of course, we are making things worse with our sanctions.

 

• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Unseen.
• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Unseen.
• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Unseen.
• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Unseen.

[UnseenParticipant]

@robert

I think Great Britain is more of a shithole than Russia.

[_Robert_Participant]

Way to show 1% of Russia, LOL. Yeah, people are just lining up to get in. Russia Annual Household Income per Capita reached 6,523.46 USD in Dec 2021. Russia has  a lower GDP than Italy, even with all that oil. It’s a shit hole and all the  people with brains have left.

[_Robert_Participant]

Well, we could go look up and compare life expectancy, suicide rates, crime rates, alcoholism rates, corruption and wellness indices of Russia against the US and UK or we can just conform our own biases with some YT talk show videos, LOL.

[UnseenParticipant]

_Robert_ wrote:

Way to show 1% of Russia, LOL. Yeah, people are just lining up to get in. Russia Annual Household Income per Capita reached 6,523.46 USD in Dec 2021. Russia has  a lower GDP than Italy, even with all that oil. It’s a shit hole and all the  people with brains have left.

Russian speakers and ethnic Russians in Ukraine are heading for Russia because the Naziesque Azov and other militias are driving them out.  BTW, even before the invasion, Zelensky was a dictator who shut down opposition parties and took over all the major media.

You quote what I assume is an accurate income for Russians that looks bad on its own. However, you slyly neglected to mention that Russian purchasing power is much higher than Americans.

It’s a miracle! People without brains can beat the U.S. to developing a hypersonic missile and design serviceable military hardware that costs a fraction of what American military hardware costs. How dumb, right?

[UnseenParticipant]

@robert

What are your thoughts on the ethics of proxy wars?

[_Robert_Participant]

What are your ethics concerning defending your country against a foreign invasion? Proxy war my arse. Nobody but Putin wanted this.

Yep, the cost of living IS cheaper when you are barely consuming, LOL. The average Russian is swimming in rubles, I am sure of it, thanks.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2013/10/09/wealth-inequality-levels-in-russia-among-highest-worldwide-a28445

Russia’s 110 million adults own, on average, $10,976 in assets, but the median wealth is much lower with half of the adult population owning $871. The average wealth per adult in the U.S. is $301,000, and in Switzerland, the country with the highest wealth per adult in the world, it is $513,000.

So much for your cost of living argument.

Ah yes, that must be why their tiny educated middle class is fleeing in droves, a trend that started years ago. Why don’t ya look that up? Are you gonna really talk-up Russian military hardware while their tank turrets fly more often than their jets and their best, biggest and most modern attack ship sits on the bottom of the sea? OK, so now you are grasping at straws with all this nonsense, but I’ll chip in 100 bucks for your one-way flight to Russia, but you have to immigrate and stay there the rest of your life, OK? But this time I’ll need some real evidence.

 

[UnseenParticipant]

@robert

The ruble is probably stronger than the dollar right now.

I note that there’s no mention of cost of living in your supposed refutation. It’s about assets, not how much food, fuel, housing, etc., cost.

Russian tanks aren’t on a par with American tanks, but there would have been far fewer tanks knocked out except that their military seems clueless about logistics with tanks driving deep into Ukraine only to run out of gas.  Furthermore, one of the main mysteries is why there was no air support for the original Russian blitzkrieg.

I’m waiting to see what happens the first time Russia uses a banned weapon (chemical, biological, nuclear). At that point, this conflict will either devolve into another “red line” crossed while NATO pretends it didn’t happen or, well, WW3.

Do you have a third scenario? Go back and re-listen or listen to the Noam Chomsky analysis.

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