Someone needs a face-saving way out of the war and…in Ukraine and…

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This topic contains 25 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  TheEncogitationer 1 month, 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 11 posts - 16 through 26 (of 26 total)
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  • #43447

    Unseen
    Participant

    @robert

    The war in Ukraine is a matter of discomfort for us, but it has dire implications for the Third World, who have it bad enough as it is.

    The war is far more devastating for the Third World than for Russia.

    We are hurting the world’s poor more than we are hurting Russia.

    And what is this war really about? Freedom for Ukrainians or…

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #43453

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    You ever heard of the phrase “Potemkin Village?” That is what you seen in those videos and that is what the entire Russian economy is, propped up by money and credit and technology from the West. And it’s been thus from the days of the Huns, to the Czars, especially during the Soviet Commissars, and now today under Putin’s Revanchist Eurasian Empire. (See Werner Keller’s work East Minus West Equals Zero.

    #43454

    Unseen
    Participant

    Unseen, You ever heard of the phrase “Potemkin Village?” That is what you seen in those videos and that is what the entire Russian economy is, propped up by money and credit and technology from the West. And it’s been thus from the days of the Huns, to the Czars, especially during the Soviet Commissars, and now today under Putin’s Revanchist Eurasian Empire. (See Werner Keller’s work East Minus West Equals Zero.

    How does “propped up by money and credit and technology from the West? not describe our own economy?

     

    #43455

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    That UN report on devasatation to the Third World doesn’t mention that Putin is the one blocking and disrupting the supply chain of grain and other goods from Ukraine. Par for the course, since Putin still keeps Russia on The UN Security Council and holds sway with UN propaganda outlets.

    “We” in the U.S. and the West are doing nothing to cause Third World Famine and poverty. Putin, however, is doing much.

    #43456

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    Yes, Zelenskyy has done wrong letting the Azov Battalion have a presence in the military and he only alienates support of good Russians for Ukraine by outlawing Russian media and culture.

    But that said, most likely, none of this would be happening if Putin had never invaded. War and tyranny breed counter-recriminations of war and tyranny and everyone suffers.

    That Makarov in Putin’s pocket is cold and waiting for his hand to turn it on himself. Go, Putie, Go!

    #43457

    jakelafort
    Participant

    I admit to lacking a great deal of knowledge about the war. Haven’t stayed abreast to the degree that you may have.

    I was opposed from the first. I reject the notion of humanitarian motivation. Historically the west has little to none until recently in the case of migrants needing succor. There have been so many genocides and humanitarian crises in which the west looked the other way and could have easily intervened and averted so much cruelty. And of course the west has been the main perpetrator of cruelty.

    So while i sympathize with a nation, an independent autonomous nation being invaded i think the analysis has to be for the greater good particularly when the scenario is a nation that got its independence from a superpower and was once a part of the superpower. This support of a war that Ukraine can not win has created a bad precedent. Which nation is next? Is it Taiwan? The threats perceived by Russia, China and perhaps South Korea may create a military alliance. The prospect of supporting Taiwan militarily or another nation that has gotten its independence from a superpower carries with it the same risks only amplified.

    If these scenarios play out multiple times the risk of nuclear war is heightened. Tensions heighten and risks increase with each scenario. It is literally Russian roulette. Pun intended. Such irresponsibility.

    The west has inflation to deal with and misspent revenue that could have been allocated to something that benefits humanity like fighting climate change or giving lower income people a stipend. But no it has gone to a futile cause attached to great suffering. But as Unseen points out the war has really hosed poor people from poor countries.

    I thought at the beginning a peaceful solution that might work is a turnover to Russia of Nazis. I don’t mean those who express ideological sympathy but have never acted. I am referring to criminals. Additionally perhaps Russia and Ukraine could have cooperated in effectuating a massive redistribution of people. So that Donbas region could have had those aligned with Ukraine patriotically and culturally get out of Dodge. And Russian speaking, Russian patriots could have stayed and been relocated to Donbas. Then cede Donbas to Russia. Only that region. And maybe Ukraine agrees to stay out of Nato. I am guessing that would have been okay with Putin. But now? I don’t know about a diplomatic solution. I am guessing Putin wants it all.

    It is funny cuz my solution is in a way a libertarian one. (probably not a solution any longer) Ultimately people have to manage their politics on their own. It is unbelievable how our morality has lagged our technology. That one person can hold so much power. And those power holding people are too often unbelievable megalomaniacs. The North Korean freak has an entire nation of people utterly hosed.

    #43459

    Unseen
    Participant

    Here’s another unintended consequence of jumping to Ukraine’s defense,

    Europe, to stop its dependence on Russian oil, is firing up coal-fired power plants. I guess we can set saving the planet aside for a while in order to save Ukraine from a world power they can at best just hold at bay.

    It’s becoming clear that as long as this war goes on, we’ll be putting up with $5-$6 gasoline prices (higher for diesel) which trickle into every aspect of the economy because, you know…trucks.

    We actually continue to buy Russian oil because we buy from India. Guess where they get their oil! So, we still buy Russian oil, but with an Indian markup applied to it.

    Ask yourself: Doesn’t this war show every sign of being another Afghanistan? Another unwinnable war that can only be won by walking away from it?

    As for China, I don’t think there’s much we can do. The 21st Century is looking like it will belong to China. We have to stop looking down our noses at them and telling ourselves that they just copy other people’s technology (like we haven’t or wouldn’t). The Chinese Communist party oversaw the most rapid gr0wth of an economy in peacetime that the world has ever seen. They make mistakes, as do we, but they have the advantage that they don’t change governments like they were changing socks. Our system worked great two centuries ago. Today it’s just a relic we are stuck with. So, maybe we do need some sort of revolution. I just hope it’s the right one.

    #43460

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Whooaaa…the unintended consequences.

    Ridiculous gas prices and inflation in general will make a republican takeover of congress and the executive quite probable unless the abortion issue takes precedence. Typically it is the pocket book that is paramount.

    How many have died already? How many traumatized? How much more unstable is the globe? How many innocent Russians targeted/discriminated? How many starving in poor nations and how has that increased the probability of civil unrest or outright revolution? How likely is it that cooperation in addressing nuclear proliferation and climate change among all nations is going to ensue in the wake of this war?

    When ya get right down to it how is it that we don’t have massive worldwide outcry against the concentration of power and f wealth? So few having so much inures to the detriment of the many. And yet the propaganda and ideology supports the iniquitous and inequitable. It is utterly FUBAR.

    #43461

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Woops and i neglected to indicate that all of this damage, volatility, risk and uncertainty will result in freedom for Ukraine? Russia will be forever chastened and keep its nose out of Ukraine? And if it fails in spite of support from so many nations other super powers will be discouraged from invading if they don’t get their demands met?

    I get the Neville Chamberlain appeasement error of the century. I don’t see that as apposite to this cuz i don’t think Putin has world domination on his agenda.

    #43467

    Unseen
    Participant

    If you think China is not going to take over Taiwan if we kill enough Ukrainians to “solve” the Ukraine problem, dream on. Look at the disparity in manpower and supply lines. We’d end up doing there what we are doing in Ukraine: arming the poor Taiwanese and sending them to die on our behalf in a war that ultimately can’t be won.

    Can anyone honestly see China sitting down at a table across from an American admiral or general to sue for peace? Bwahahahahahaha!!!

    OR…we could start WW3.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #43469

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    We could go back to domestic production of our own petroleum, including re-opening ANWR and The Keystone XL pipeline, building new refineries (we haven’t had a new one since 1977,) and searching for new sources nationwide and offshore.

    Really, when you think about it domestic production of petroleum produces a much smaller Carbon footprint than shipping it from all over the world and the opportunity costs make it more than worth it.

    Meanwhile, we can still research better way to use petroleum with less environmental impact (natural gas from petroleum leaves a much smaller Carbon footprint than other petroleum fuels, yet Fuckin’ New Fuckin’ York wants to ban new construction that uses natural gas.) We can still build new nuclear plants that use breeder technology that produces much less waste. We can continue to mine the Uranium under the North American Continental Shelf that could last us indefinitely.

    And we can sell the nations of Europe lateral drilling technology that has now made Israel an oil-producing nation, so they all can be independent from both Russia and OPEC.

    There are many peaceful things we could do that would grind Putin’s Eurasian Empire fever dreams to a dead stop and bring more prosperity to boot. Alas and alack, our nation’s CEO evidently wants us to atrophy and crumble as he’s doing now.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Addendum
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