We thought civilization required agriculture until…
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July 19, 2025 at 5:25 am #58143
A bunch of hippies are smoking weed and chilling out….very calm and egalitarian. One of them opens a box of chocolate cookies. He becomes the leader. Humans just cannot cope without having a leader. And if he (or she) can do the thinking for them too, then the happier they all will be.
In an egalitarian society, it’s different. Nobody has more than anyone else, so the box of cookies would have been shared out so that everyone got some.
In egalitarian societies, which are necessarily small, there are “levelling mechanisms” so that anyone who tries to lord it over others will be ridiculed, punished, expelled, or assassinated.
July 19, 2025 at 5:26 am #58144It’s sometimes pointed out when one argues that matriarchies simply don’t work that they worked in Polynesian societies.
The absence of patriarchy doesn’t necessarily imply a matriarchy. It implies egalitarianism.
July 19, 2025 at 3:36 pm #58145Reg and Simon,
Reg wrote:
A bunch of hippies are smoking weed and chilling out….very calm and egalitarian. One of them opens a box of chocolate cookies. He becomes the leader. Humans just cannot cope without having a leader. And if he (or she) can do the thinking for them too, then the happier they all will be.
Simon replied:
In an egalitarian society, it’s different. Nobody has more than anyone else, so the box of cookies would have been shared out so that everyone got some.
In egalitarian societies, which are necessarily small, there are “levelling mechanisms” so that anyone who tries to lord it over others will be ridiculed, punished, expelled, or assassinated.
Well, there is always the possibility of the hippies getting off their asses and baking their own chocolate cookies, or chocolate chip or oatmeal or vanilla wafers or even brownies, then trading them with each other. No central authority required, just some basic rules to not harsh each other’s buzz. And the supply and variety of baked goodies goes up too. No egalitarian guarantee of results either, but everyone is better off.
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This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by
TheEncogitationer. Reason: Substitute "Variety" for "Volume." and addendum
July 19, 2025 at 4:01 pm #58147Egalitarian society is an ideal that never lasts because humans participate in maintaining it. What I would call “social entropy” is always at play. Much like energy must be input into a physical system to maintain order, maintaining egalitarian norms requires constant work. Someone must reinforce the values of fairness and shared responsibility within the group. All members must act transparently and actively participate in maintaining group cohesion. Once that enthusiasm (energy) fades, either through apathy, corruption, or external threats, the system tilts and will unlikely never recover its original balance.
Because humans are involved it will, like all societies, drift towards a hierarchical state. This is inherent in human nature. Over time Elites will consolidate power and wealth. Institutions will calcify thus privileging insiders. Meritocracies become hereditocracies where inherited wealth gives rise to dynasties. No chance that this wealth will ever be redistributed to the rest of the group. Even successful revolutions only spawn new elites. The sociologist Robert Michels proposed that all organizations, even those committed to democracy or equality, tend to produce oligarchies over time. “Who says organization, says oligarchy.”
Humans are wired for in-group favouritism. People tend to overestimate their deserved status by thinking that “I earned this.” But as soon as we perceive a threat, even a false one, we run for protection. After civil war and chaos, many Romans welcomed the dictatorship of Julius Caesar because it promised order. “It is better to suffer once from a tyrant than to suffer always from a multitude” was a sentiment at the time. When the population has succumbed to misinformation and disinformation it becomes easy to control and manipulate, especially when the God Delusion has already tenderized their minds.
Humans will believe anything at this point, no matter how stupid and dumb it sounds to a freethinker. I watch in stunned amazement at how gullible people are, afraid of hearsay reports of tilting windmills (not even the ones that cause cancer from noise or kill eagles by the hundreds). The “others” are coming for you!! Follow me and I will save you!! Language can be manipulated to erase memory, twist morality, and keep the masses docile. I hear the words “Yes Reg, you are of the same species as they are,” in my head.
But I do think either naively or optimistically that humans, in general, yearn for equality and equity. Religions preach equality before God(s), philosophers argue for justice and fairness, Civil Rights and Labour movements rise to redistribute power. So, while social entropy pulls toward hierarchy, our ideals keep pushing back.
But egalitarian ideals will always succumb to social entropy. Propaganda, indoctrination, and power consolidation allow those in charge to rewrite truth, even when it might contradict everything they once stood for. Marxism turned Stalinist, Utopian communes become bureaucracies, Digital democracy morphs into algorithmic surveillance, revolutions (televised or not) become regimes.
After every revolution, the mob will chant “All animals are equal.” Eventually, the Law of Social Entropy takes its course, and we notice that “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” To think otherwise is to engage in doublethink. OK Reg, your cookies are ready. Just remember the words over the oven door:
“WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH”July 19, 2025 at 8:33 pm #58152It’s sometimes pointed out when one argues that matriarchies simply don’t work that they worked in Polynesian societies.
The absence of patriarchy doesn’t necessarily imply a matriarchy. It implies egalitarianism.
Simon, I think you’re a classic reductonist. No matter what information you get, you fit it in.
So, let me ask you this: What data or facts would tend to disconfirm rather than confirm your view?
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