You don't need determinism…

[UnseenParticipant]

…for there to be no free will.

Under the current ‘standard model” of physics, accepted by the majority of physicists, we exist in a so-called “block universe.”

I asked Gemini AI to define block universe in layman terms and I got this:

In simple terms, the Block Universe theory is the idea that the past, the present, and the future all exist at the same time, in one giant, unchanging “block” of reality.

Instead of time being a river that flows past us, this theory suggests time is more like a long, solid loaf of bread.

The “Loaf of Bread” Analogy

Imagine the entire history of the universe is a loaf of bread.

A Slice of Time: If you cut a slice from the loaf, that slice represents a single moment in time (like “right now”).

The Whole Loaf: The entire loaf contains every slice—from the very first moment (the Big Bang) to the very last moment of the universe.

Everything Exists At Once: Just because you are looking at one slice doesn’t mean the other slices aren’t there. In this view, your birth is still “back there” in one part of the loaf, and your 100th birthday is “ahead” in another part. They are both equally real.

Why do scientists think this?

This idea comes from Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. Einstein discovered that time is relative—it can stretch or shrink depending on how fast you are moving.

Because two different people can disagree on what is happening “now” (depending on their speed and location), physics suggests there is no single, universal “Present.”

If your “future” could be someone else’s “now,” then the future must already exist somewhere in the block.

Three Mind-Bending Implications

Time is a Dimension: Just as “left” and “right” or “up” and “down” always exist (even if you aren’t there), “yesterday” and “tomorrow” always exist. They are just coordinates in the block.

The Illusion of Flow: We feel like time is moving forward, but the theory suggests this is just a trick of our human consciousness—like a movie projector moving through the frames of a film. The film itself (the block) is already finished and sitting in the canister.

Fate vs. Free Will: If the “future” part of the block is already there, it implies that every event is already “written.” This raises big questions about whether we truly have free will or if we are just following a path already set in the “cement” of spacetime.

[UnseenParticipant]

You may be wondering what evidence exists for the block universe theory. As the Gemini AI explains it:

The evidence for the Block Universe theory isn’t based on a single “discovery,” but rather on the logical conclusions we are forced to draw from Einstein’s Theory of Special Relativity.

If the math of relativity is a correct description of the world—which a century of experiments has proven it is—then the block universe is the most consistent way to interpret that reality.

1. The Death of “Now” (Relativity of Simultaneity)

This is the strongest piece of evidence. In our daily lives, we assume there is a universal “Now”—a single moment happening for everyone in the universe at once.

The Evidence: Einstein proved that two people moving at different speeds will disagree on whether two events happened at the same time.

The Conclusion: If “Now” is different for everyone, there is no special “Present” moment. If your “future” is already “now” for someone moving fast enough, then that future must already exist.

2. The Andromeda Paradox

This is a famous thought experiment that scales up the “Relativity of Simultaneity” to show how extreme the effect is over long distances.

The Scenario: Imagine two people walking past each other on the street. Because they are moving in opposite directions, their “slices” of what is happening “now” in the distant Andromeda Galaxy are slightly tilted relative to each other.

The Evidence: For the person walking toward Andromeda, the “now” might include an alien fleet already launching an invasion. For the person walking away, that same invasion might not be decided upon for another few days.
The Conclusion: Since both people are equally “correct” in their frame of reference, the event (the invasion) must already exist in the fabric of spacetime, regardless of whether we’ve seen it yet.

3. Time Dilation (Experimental Proof)

We have physical, experimental proof that time is not a universal ticking clock, but a dimension that can be stretched.

The Evidence: Atomic clocks on fast-moving satellites (like GPS) tick slower than clocks on the ground. Astronauts who spend months on the International Space Station actually return to Earth having aged a tiny fraction of a second less than people on the ground.

The Conclusion: If you can “skip ahead” or “slow down” your passage through time relative to someone else, it implies you are both moving through a pre-existing 4D landscape (spacetime) at different angles, much like two people taking different paths across a park.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

I agree almost entirely with this idea. I am a big fan of Carlo Rovelli and “Relational States”. There is no “Now”. All events exist “tenselessly”, i.e. without the concept of past, present or future. “Earlier than” and “later than” are structural facts, not things waiting to happen. We don’t experience the “whole loaf”.  We are just a local process embedded inside one slice. The universe does not happen. The universe is. For me there is no Time that flows. There is no cosmic clock hand and no metaphysical free will. Events exist only in relation to other events but never in relation to “time”. There is just structure and the relational interactions that happen between them. I would say we are just embedded agents mistaking our local perspective for universal motion. We gave time momentum because we sense “motion” (what I used to see as time passing) and therefore saw “order” and decided that this momentum needed enforcing. But the baker is not Motion. It is Relations”.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

[UnseenParticipant]

Block universe on the one hand or a universe governed by the inescapable necessity of physical laws, it makes no difference. It makes no matter how you respond to either situation. In the one case, your response has already happened in a sense while in the other, however you respond, your response is what had to happen.

Some will say, “But that’s nihilistic. That means there’s no point to anything. The child abuser, the family annihilator, the terrorist…they’re no better or worse than the hero or altruist or selfless caregiver.”

I don’t know what to tell you other than…”Yup! In a very real sense, we’re not the author of our actions, no matter how connected to and responsible for them we may feel.”

[UnseenParticipant]

It seems to me as an  atheist that the presentist universe makes more sense because the block universe is far more compatible with the intelligent design view.

The notion that the big bang, the trillions of galaxies and septillions of planets, the inception and explosion of life forms on Earth or anywhere, the construction of the Pyramids and The Sphynx, the sinking of The Bismarck, and that time my cat destroyed my tablet by knocking a coffee mug onto it, as well as everything included in the future were included in the block universe…all that begs for an intelligent designer rather than random inclusion by happenstance.

It’s simply unbelievable.

Far more believable, to my mind, is presentism.

Why? Because it’s testable. I can boil water. I can kick a ball. I can play billiards. I can see how The Battle of Leyte Gulf was won. I can understand how and why the future is unknowable.

And none of that requires or  even implies the existence of an intelligent designer.

Reg?

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

The notion that the big bang, the trillions of galaxies and septillions of planets, the inception and explosion of life forms on Earth or anywhere, the construction of the Pyramids and The Sphynx, the sinking of The Bismarck, and that time my cat destroyed my tablet by knocking a coffee mug onto it, as well as everything included in the future were included in the block universe…all that begs for an intelligent designer rather than random inclusion by happenstance.

It’s simply unbelievable.

I think it makes more sense if we consider a structure of the universe as being one of deterministic cause and effect.  The proposal is that the universe, from start to finish, was formed in one go.  All events and timelines of objects’ spatial movements were put in place by this process that formed the block deterministically.

Now, you and I are existing at continuously-moving points (“now”) on the timelines of our earthly existence.  What I can’t get my head around, is how the experiencing, living “self” relates to the point “now” on the timeline of my life, if other points on my timeline contain past and future versions of my self at other “now”s.

[UnseenParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

I think it makes more sense if we consider a structure of the universe as being one of deterministic cause and effect.  The proposal is that the universe, from start to finish, was formed in one go.  All events and timelines of objects’ spatial movements were put in place by this process that formed the block deterministically.

There is no determinism in the block universe, though from the perspective of a conscious mind, this appears to be so. I think the block universe and presentism are pretty much mutually exclusive.

I’ll stick with pure deterministic cause and effect operating in local time and space recognizing that in extreme circumstances involving speed and great distance come distortions. Some argue that determinism means the future is determined as well, but they forget the total randomness of the quantum level and that it can leak into the higher level interrupting causal chains and creating diversions that are unpredictable and set up unanticipatable new chains.

Note that even though the future isn’t predetermined, you and are still enmeshed in myriad chains of cause and effect. It doesn’t bestow any freedom on us.

Now, you and I are existing at continuously-moving points (“now”) on the timelines of our earthly existence.  What I can’t get my head around, is how the experiencing, living “self” relates to the point “now” on the timeline of my life, if other points on my timeline contain past and future versions of my self at other “now”s.

Yes, the present is a mystery. Like the geometric point, it seems to have no dimension. In the language of time, it has no duration. Is the present a minute long? a second? If not, what is the duration of the present?

It’s a question that only makes sense when you don’t ask it.

• This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Unseen.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Fellow Unbelievers,

Meanwhile, real people have been, are now, and will persist in, baking loaves of bread of all varieties, white, wheat, split-top butter, cinnamon raisin, sourdough, and–in spite of everything–rye, pumpernickel, and bagels.

Some of us even make flat breads like tortillas, pitas, and naan. And once these are made, real people decide how thick or thin they make their slices and whether to bake them, toast them, fry them, or even burn them.

And real people discover and prepare infinite number of things to go in between slices of bread or layers of dough. What are sammiches and pie but just some kind of food in some kind of bread?

Some of us real people with type 2 Diabetes have to exercise portion control of bread to maintain our coordinates. Some us real people with Celiac’s Disease have to have bread without gluten, though some wellness wonks think gluten-free is mandatory for everyone.

And all this will go on as long as there are real people in a Natural Universe that will always exist. Yummy.

[UnseenParticipant]

Okay, Enco, but we do all that shit in the present, which appears to have no duration whatsoever.

It seems like everything we do is in a world defined by Zeno. You know, that paradox guy.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen:

Okay, Enco, but we do all that shit in the present, which appears to have no duration whatsoever.

Notice the multiple tenses used in my sentences. Those couldn’t exist or mean anything without time. Not to mention observe all the choices available. Those couldn’t exist either in a wholly free will-free Universe.

It seems like everything we do is in a world defined by Zeno. You know, that paradox guy.

But “seems” doesn’t necessarily mean “is” and “paradox” is only a seeming contradiction.

Those simulacra thingamabobs are about as real as Trump “Med-Beds.” Best not to put hope in them or spend time in them.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

Some will say, “But that’s nihilistic. That means there’s no point to anything. The child abuser, the family annihilator, the terrorist…they’re no better or worse than the hero or altruist or selfless caregiver.”

I don’t know what to tell you other than…”Yup! In a very real sense, we’re not the author of our actions, no matter how connected to and responsible for them we may feel.”

As far as accountability and free will go, I’d say that we all operate in an everyday world of “as-if” free will – we have a certain amount of agency over our actions – and we’re judged and held accountable on this as-if agency.

[UnseenParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

As far as accountability and free will go, I’d say that we all operate in an everyday world of “as-if” free will – we have a certain amount of agency over our actions – and we’re judged and held accountable on this as-if agency.

No, you feel you have a certain amount of agency. If you are sure there’s any agency at all, explain it. The truth is if you feel you’re a free agent, you’re caused to feel that way by an antecedent chain of causes and effects. Bear in mind that this feeling agency is no more proof of anything than is that other common feeling we have that we call deja vu.

[UnseenParticipant]

How long is now?

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

No, you feel you have a certain amount of agency.

What I’m saying is, we treat ourselves and each other as if we have agency, whether we “really” do or not.  It’s on this level that we’re held accountable.

[Author]

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