Denmark: Killing itself with kindness?

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This topic contains 34 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Autumn 3 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #40870

    Unseen
    Participant

    Some time ago, Denmark openheartedly accepted many immigrants from Lebanon and elsewhere in the Middle East, most of them practicing Muslims. It hasn’t gone well, not so much with the immigrants but with the native (and let’s note: white) Danes who feel Denmark is changing in ways they didn’t anticipate and, as it turns out, don’t much like. So much so that many ordinary Danes have taken to the street along with skinheads and other ruffians to protest.

    Denmark’s response has been to cut off Middle Eastern immigration and either deport many of the immigrants or put them into internment camps, presumably while the government figures out what to do with them. They are sheltered and fed and while they can leave the camp during the day there is little they can do because they have no money and cannot have a driver license.

    After watching either one or both of the vids below, the question is how to do immigration right, both in Denmark’s case and generally speaking.

    The long one:

    The shorter one:

    #40871

    jakelafort
    Participant

    The immigrants are members of the biggest cult. That is the problem. What is it the Chinese do with the Uyghur?

    No that is not way to go! How about starting by acknowledging that Islam is a political institution and a cult? Sure they’re pushing mythology that is false same as any religion but that is not the point here. Those immigrants are victims of Islam. The bullshit about Islamaphobia is indicative of a mindset that has misdirected tolerance towards an entity that ought to be seen in its proper light.

    How to tackle the issue of cultism? I would look to the literature and the experts on that topic. But it seems to me that a wise change to Denmark and other nations that have Muslim immigrants is to make it illegal to indoctrinate children until they are 19. That ought to be a condition to entry. If you won’t agree to that provision then you are not allowed access or citizenship. And kids have to be socialized with the natives by attending public or private schools. None of the sartorial requirements tolerated in public either…

    #40872

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Not sure whether i mentioned it here but i know an atheist from Syria who had to flee cuz of the civil war. He ends up in Germany and is eager to assimilate, learn German language, get a good job and live his life. He is an engineer and from all appearances of high character.

    What he encounters is discrimination because he is an atheist rather than a Muslim. Here is a guy who appears to be the paradigm in what a nation wants in its immigrants and yet he gets treated less favorably than Muslims who are not working hard the way he is to assimilate.

    It is a fucked up world and there aint jack shit we can do about it. How about those crocodile icefish? Pretty cool, ha?

    #40890

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Jake,

    Sorry to hear about your friend. Sadly, I don’t think anybody from the outside–no matter how long they stay, no matter if they work, open businesses, contribute to the culture, no matter if they are fully naturalized Citizens–is ever considered a full Citizen in Germany or many other European nations.

    Goodness knows, the Jews tried to be a part of German society for over 900 years. Some tried so hard to assimilate that German Jews in the U.S. were actually questioned on their loyalties by the House Un-American Activities during “The Great War”, World War I. Some Jews tried so hard to assimilate that the only way you could tell who was Jewish was by synagogue records for women and dropping trou for men.

    But despite all that, it still didn’t do German Jews any good in the end.

    That’s the dirty little secret about all of these “Progressive” European States that everyone says the U.S. “should try to be like.” They tend to he very homogenous and insular, even to newcomers who have something to offer, then overcompensate by being oikophobic or ashamed of native ways, even when they might be good. In this case, Germany appears to be renouncing the Secularism of the West and your friend got caught in the middle.

    The U.S.A. could never do any of that because there is no “American Race” or “American Ethnicity.” America is as much a set of ideas as it is a place. Your friend might be better off here if he can manage. As for secular-friendly spots in the U.S., New Hampshire and Maine are the two highest with populations of “Nones” and Unbelievers. Maybe one day I’ll get there myself if I could take a ferry around the Tri-State Babylon.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Assimilating some better spelling
    #40905

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Enco i am not averse to some of your scribbles. The nativism and xenophobia in Germany are real. Jews were never really accepted even during the Weimar Republic. But a few things i adduce without what the deucing…

    That same fuck all yall who aint pure fill in the blank is in the land of ideas you love. I did a term paper in law school about immigration policy in the US. Bottom line is that year after year immigration laws had quotas and were informed by pure racist ideology. The Chinese Exclusion Act is pretty well known but it is hardly an outlier. There were limitations on numbers of Slavs and Jews and other undesirables. There is a residue of racism extant that is directed against South and Central American peoples even though many are fleeing exigent circumstances. Mexico did not pay for that wall but the sentiments elicited by the Orange pontificator were spot on.

    Further, consider how immigrants have been received in the USA. Ever seen those signs Irish need not apply? Ever read about the racism in California during the gold rush and also in general against Chinese during the construction of the transcontinental railroad? Read about how various Asian groups have been discriminated against and the simple utterance by the Orange one is enough to have caused thousands of racist actions against Asians. Say Kung Flu and i will sue!

    Also notwithstanding your contention that there is no American race or ethnicity so that kind of shit can’t happen here see the Mexican American war-a war of pure aggression with an underlying racism cloaked in manifest destiny- a titular euphemism of racist superiority of Americans over Mexicans. Don’t forget about the internment of Japanese Americans who fought valiantly during ww2 and to my knowledge never committed any treasonous acts against the US. But they were not true Americans. And then consider how our presidents and senators are very limited in terms of ancestry, race and religion. So America is not so different.

    Enco you wrote: That’s the dirty little secret about all of these “Progressive” European States that everyone says the U.S. “should try to be like.” I don’t accept your premise or conclusion. We can at least in theory or in a Doc Pangloss way assert that nativism/racism/xenophobia suck donkey turds. We ought not emulate Europeans who have exhibited and deposited donkey waste. On the other hand Europeans have universal health care for the most part. And oh my aching tooth is that needed in the USA! So it simply does not follow that one aspect sucks and therefore everything about so called progressivism sucks.

    #40910

    Unseen
    Participant

    Not sure whether i mentioned it here but i know an atheist from Syria who had to flee cuz of the civil war. He ends up in Germany and is eager to assimilate, learn German language, get a good job and live his life. He is an engineer and from all appearances of high character. What he encounters is discrimination because he is an atheist rather than a Muslim. Here is a guy who appears to be the paradigm in what a nation wants in its immigrants and yet he gets treated less favorably than Muslims who are not working hard the way he is to assimilate. It is a fucked up world and there aint jack shit we can do about it. How about those crocodile icefish? Pretty cool, ha?

    I know a guy who worked in the UK, Germany, and France for an international company for the better part of a decade. He told me that Europe is more racist than America and that Muslim immigrants are often shunned and that the young men in particular find it nearly impossible to make a living, giving them a toxic combination of frustration and resentment tied with having a lot of time on their hands. This is time the radical recruiters use to find pawns to send out to carry out acts of terror.

    As a result, if you go here, where you’ll find a list of Islamic terror attacks, you’ll see that the European democracies, which occupy a land mass similar in size to the U.S. have, taken together, had generally more of them since 9/11 than the United States.

    Why? One theory that makes at least initial sense, hinted at above, is that Americans have accepted Muslims far more than Europeans have. If you have a doctor, for example, he’s often not white, and most Americans wouldn’t mind if he’s a practicing Muslim. We just trust that even a Muslim can diagnose and treat diseases, and perform surgery. Muslims are present at all levels and in all industries. They are laborers, managers, professionals, business owners. Are some Americans severely prejudiced against Muslims? Sure. However, most Americans don’t seem to care nearly as much as Europeans do.

    Do European attitudes toward Muslims actually create terrorists? Or has America protected itself by not accepting immigrants on a large scale, and then only after a strict and individualized vetting process? Has Denmark, along with other European countries, been killing itself with kindness?

    List of countries by refugee population

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #40913

    Unseen
    Participant

    @jake  It’s much tougher to immigrate into America as a refugee than it is in many other countries, isn’t it?

    Maybe this is why we don’t have anti-Muslim riots here.

    #40914

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Yeah that is my understanding Unseen.

    After 9/11 in USA there was strong anti-Muslim sentiment. If a similar attack had occurred shortly after 9/11 innocent Muslims would have been lynched i am reasonably confident. And if USA had taken Muslims en masse the way Germany has coupled with the rising fascist tendencies it would not be pretty here either.

    I think what is often overlooked is that racism is connected to classism. For instance it is still not easy being Black in the USA. But if ya got money it is a great deal closer to equality. Wealthy or well to do Blacks or Jews for that matter will tend to be respected even as there is a latent bigotry. And if Muslims as a group (obviously they’re not a race) are bottom rung economically they’re gonna be catching shit. Add to that dynamic a period of xenophobia, the freakish cult ways of Muslims and the old antipathy Christ lovers have for Muslims and it is a powder keg.

    #40915

    Unseen
    Participant

    @jake

    Right now, the main animosity seems to be toward Asians, which I’m sure is Covid-related (as if the average Asian on the street had anything to do with it). Mostly, these are one-on-one attacks by solitary wackos, no ralllies or riots.

    #40921

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    After watching either one or both of the vids below, the question is how to do immigration right, both in Denmark’s case and generally speaking.

    A very good question, one that isn’t answered with an all-or-nothing response, but does require some hard-and-fast principles.

    Squeezing 8 billion people into one spot is obviously not a policy. Any such place would no longer be prosperous or clean or navigable and especially not habitable or free or worth a visit, let alone a stay. And this would be true, no matter what the religion, culture, nationality, “race,” or “ethnicity” of the people involved.

    On the other hand, zero immigration is not desireable either. Part of the strength, resilience and variety in our nation comes from people all over the world bringing new ideas, goods, services, and practices and putting them together in new ways. In this nation, we eat burgers with Swiss cheese, bagels with sausage, tortilla chips with hummus, egg rolls stuffed with pizza fixin’s, and Persian pistaccio and Neapolitan ice cream.

    Immutable traits should not be a barrier to coming to this nation, however, it isn’t too much to ask that people coming here respect the Rights to Life, Liberty, Property, and Pursuit of Happiness which are our founding ideals. That would mean no invaders in uniforms, no spies, no international terrorists, no criminals, no carriers of deadly diseases spread by casual contact, and all persons coming here must be self-supporting or sponsored.

    And Ellis Island and all points of entry must have thick bristled rugs, boot wedges, hose pipes, and a sign that says: “Whatever shit brought you here, leave it there! Welcome To the U.S.A.!”

    In other words, we should expect from immigrants what we should expect from ourselves and each other as U.S. Citizens.

    #40923

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Rights to Life, Liberty, Property, and Pursuit of Happiness sure sounds great until your pursuit of happiness endangers my right to life. So taken as absolutes these are just meaningless weasel words. Everything has context and is relative, nullifying absolute ideology. That is the problem with Islam. They can’t even murmur a polite statement without praising their prophet. It is so entwined with everything adherents do, and it is hideous and complete bullshit. It is incompatible with democracy, liberalism, and any other belief system since a tenant is that everything non-Islamic is shit. Sure, immigration is a core value of liberalism. But liberalism is a peril to itself and therefore I think safeguards ae needed if a nation wants to “do the right thing.”

    #40934

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Jake,

    The Unitde States did attempt racist restrictions on immigration in the past, but in doing so, it contradicted it’s own ethos, since for 500 years, every successive wave of people on this Continent except for the Indians were outsiders.

    By contrast, Germany, France, Japan, and every other nation in the world is all about “turf.” In many nations, you hve to be one of them to become a full-fledged citizen.

    We can at least in theory or in a Doc Pangloss way assert that nativism/racism/xenophobia suck donkey turds. We ought not emulate Europeans who have exhibited and deposited donkey waste. On the other hand Europeans have universal health care for the most part. And oh my aching tooth is that needed in the USA! So it simply does not follow that one aspect sucks and therefore everything about so called progressivism sucks.

    And Free-Market Economist Milton Friedman explicily and aptly addressed this decades ago: He pointed out that you can have free immigration, or you can have a Welfare State, but you can’t have both in the same time and place.

    Free immigraion would financially break a Welfare State and a broken Welfare State would be no service to immigrants or anyoe else, particularly if immigrants came with medical conditions not typically found in their new home.

    #40935

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Robert,

    We already have laws addressing crimes against Life, Liberty and Property. We only need to enforce them when either Citizens or Immigrants violate them.

    Immigrants can bring new skills, new styles of clothing, new cuisine, new forms of art, music, and dance. What they cannot bring is the barbarism that makes people flee from elsewhere.

    Bring food trucks of Salsa-coated goodies and Salsa dancing and Mariachi music, but keep Cartel wars and slave trafficking out.

    Bring Riverdance, Shamrocks, and Corned Beef and Cabbage, but leave “The Troubles” behind.

    Bring tbe Cannolis and even bring the guns, but keep The Mob back in Sicily.

    Bring Hummus, Falfel, Lamb, Goat, and Belly Dancing, but don’t bring “honor killings,” forced cliterectomies, and Beruit to the streets of Detroit and Hamatramck.

    Bring Curry, Saffron Robes, Yoga, and the techniques of Tantra, but no Sutee bonfires or pogroms against “Untouchables.”

    Get the picture?

    And it helps to remember that barbarism doesn’t just come from outside our shores. This kid below was probably here since birth and he still went horribly wrong:

    He said they disrespected his Islamic faith during a sleepover. Then, he stabbed a 13-year-old 49 times.
    Victor Fakunle
    https://www.frontpagedetectives.com/p/florida-teen-stabbing-islam-isis-sleepover

    *Sigh!* “You’ve Got To Be Carefully Taught…”

    #40936

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Enco, the ethos is consistent. Immigrants who are not Scots, Brits, Germans have faced significant discrimination. I don’t pay much attention to lofty and empty slogans or ideals. Chimeras are chimeras irrespective of their labels. The USA got the natives out of the way and did so ruthlessly. We were big time participants in the Atlantic Slave trade and fought a civil war over the issue. Big cities had and to some degree continue to have distinct ethnic and racial divisions geographically and culturally.

    The notion of turf is as applicable in the USA as anywhere else. From Jefferson on it was about Westward expansion. As aforementioned the war with Mexico was a turf grabber and racist endeavor. The Spanish American war we took more turf. We do have people from all over the world which is pretty cool. I just don’t know how you are justifying a distinction between USA and Europe. As an aside i throw in how disingenuous and racist so many liberals are in their appraisal of Israel. The double standard is laughable. I will leave it at that.

    I am not familiar with Friedman. But that assertion does not seem to be accurate. How are so many nations giving health care and getting on reasonably well?

    l would be circumspect with immigration as it applies to Muslims. I would not permit immigration without concessions and violators would be chucked. But i think if we make it criminal to indoctrinate little children and teenagers so that kids from Muslim families are socialized and integrated and learn enough and love enough of their American or European culture that those secular influences will create a great deal of apostasy and resistance to radicalization.

    #40937

    Unseen
    Participant

    @jake Scots, Brits, Germans… Those are not races in the same way a black, Asian, or Native American is. My background is German, but when I look in the mirror I don’t see a German. When the nonwhite races look in the mirror they have to accept the fact that they are hyphenated and will be as long as they look the way they do.

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