Has Russia declared war on the West?

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This topic contains 43 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Unseen 10 months ago.

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  • #35615

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Yeah, so much cannon fodder… however they can certainly engineer (even if mostly in reverse) can do a lot with very little and still managed a culture of great music, literature, art and dance. They gave us Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky. Seems like they have often been “misunderestimated” throughout history, LOL.

    #35637

    Unseen
    Participant
    • Fellow Unbelievers,

    Russia is now what it has been since the the days of Communism, the Czars, and the Huns: It is nothing and nobody without the resources, wealth, know-how and technology provided by the West in general and the United States in particular. Had the U.S. and the West simply cut the spigot of wealth provided to Russia during the New Economic Plan of V.I. Lenin, (backed by Herbert Hoover before he became a President,) the whole Soviet Communist experiment would have collapsed. There would have been no Stalinist Terror Famines and Purges, no Gulags, no spread of Communism to China and Southeast Asia and thus no Maoist Great Leap Forward, no Cultural Revolution, no Pol Pot’s Killing Fields. No World War II or Holocaust as we know them either. Europe feared standing up to Hitler’s Nazi regime because they thought the Nazis were a bulwark against Communism. With no Soviet Communism to justify the existence of Nazism and no Hitler-Stalin Non-Aggression Pact to further the expansion of Nazism to Poland, Hitler and the Nazis would have been a push-over. Oh and no ex-KGB Vladamir Putin to re-establish the Russian Orthodox Church, persecute LGBTQ and dissenter Punk Grrl bands like Pussy Riot, try to retake Ukraine, and do cyber-attacks. History would be very different if we stopped enabling those who get a snort of power and go on drunken rampages of mass destruction and death. For more fascinating reading on the subject, I highly recommend East Minus West Equals Zero by Werner Keller.

    I’m pretty sure Hitler would have happened even without a Communist Russia. There was their (perceived) insulting treatment after WW I and also The Jewish Problem.

    I think we forget the HUGE role Russia played in defeating the Nazis. They had an industrial miracle as big as the United States’. Russia’s Panzers were superior tanks, but the Russians produced a serviceable opponent and produced them in far greater numbers, eventually overwhelming this essential tool of Blitzkrieg.

    Russia’s manpower contribution can’t be overestimated. They lost about 20,000,000 to the U.S.’s 420,000. Without Russia, we might not have won the war in Europe.

    And, of course, when I say “Russia” I mean Communist Russia or the USSR.

    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by  Unseen.
    #35641

    Unseen
    Participant

    Yeah, so much cannon fodder… however they can certainly engineer (even if mostly in reverse) can do a lot with very little and still managed a culture of great music, literature, art and dance. They gave us Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky. Seems like they have often been “misunderestimated” throughout history, LOL.

    And now, a lot of us are doing the same regarding the Chinese. “They aren’t creative. They steal and copy and reverse engineer.” (Detect any racism there?) Anyone who thinks the Chinese can’t be creative hasn’t take a look at the the top examples of Chinese architecture, for example. Like the Rooskies, they can make highly serviceable stuff at a fraction of what we pay for a similar item. And they can produce it in quantity.

    They are working on a manned moon station and recently successfully tested a reusable spacecraft, sending it into orbit for two days and returning it to Earth.

    As for stealing, copying, and reverse engineering…Yeah, like we’d never do that.

    #35642

    _Robert_
    Participant
    #35643

    Unseen
    Participant

    https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=247065 https://io9.gizmodo.com/incredible-soviet-rip-offs-of-western-technologies-973280252 https://www.rferl.org/a/the-classic-western-cars-copied-by-the-soviets/28468695.html https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/1858/how-were-western-computer-chips-reverse-engineered-in-ussr Right Unseen, LOL.

    Check out the difference in the two shuttles payload capabilities. Theirs can somehow carry more than four times as much.

    No doubt, they’ve copied, stolen, and reverse engineered lots of stuff. So would we if we were playing catch up. LOL

    If you see a successful design, use it. It’s stupid to think, “Wow, theirs works so well. We need to do as well or better but it wouldn’t be right if ours looked a lot like theirs.” Learn from others successes, but also from their mistakes.

    The question is, is this all they can do. Thinking so is where the racism comes in. Because we feel superior to them, we are letting them beat us.

    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by  Unseen.
    #35645

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    In an alternate history, Hitler may have still came to power in Germany and may have committed some pogroms against German and Austrian Jews.

    But without enabling from the Non-Aggression Pact with Stalin (a.k.a. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact,) Hitler could have never fed and supplied a war machine to expand abroad, then set up a system of concentration camps, then murder 6 million Jews, plus 5 million Slavs, Romani (once called Gypsies,) Poles, Homosexuals, the mentally infirm, the handicapped, opposition leaders, business and labor leaders, ‘asocial types’ and others.  Communist Russia and Nazi Germany stoked and aided each others’ inhumanity via The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

    You mentioned Russia’s proported industrial strength to overwhelm the Nazi Blitzkrieg, but do you know where they got a big part of that industrial edge?  This factoid about The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact reveals all:

    Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact–Wikipedia
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

    Expansion of Raw Materials and Military Trading

    Main articles: German–Soviet Credit Agreement (1939) and German–Soviet Commercial Agreement (1940)

    Germany and the Soviet Union entered an intricate trade pact on 11 February 1940 that was over four times larger than the one that the two countries had signed in August 1939.[210] The new trade pact helped Germany surmount a British blockade.[210] In the first year, Germany received one million tons of cereals, half-a-million tons of wheat, 900,000 tons of oil, 100,000 tons of cotton, 500,000 tons of phosphates and considerable amounts of other vital raw materials, along with the transit of one million tons of soybeans from Manchuria. Those and other supplies were being transported through Soviet and occupied Polish territories.[210] The Soviets were to receive a naval cruiser, the plans to the battleship Bismarck, heavy naval guns, other naval gear and 30 of Germany’s latest warplanes, including the Bf 109 and Bf 110 fighters and Ju 88 bomber.[210] The Soviets would also receive oil and electric equipment, locomotives, turbines, generators, diesel engines, ships, machine tools and samples of German artillery, tanks, explosives, chemical-warfare equipment and other items.[210]

    The U.S. has also provided much technology to Russia as Robert rightly showed above.  Officers from The Army Corps of Engineers also helped build Soviet dams.  Henry Ford built factories abroad that supported both Nazi and Communist systems and he profiteered from slave labor under both systems.

    As for Soviet Russia’s 20 million war dead from World War II, that is not a “contribution,” but a testiment to Joseph Stalin’s stupidity and barbarity.

    When Joseph Stalin made the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with Hitler, who then turned on Soviet Russia, it was like a terrorist whose bomb went off in his own hand.  Also, Soviet Russia might not have lost so many lives if Stalin had not purged, imprisoned in the Gulag, and exterminated 80 percent of his best and brightest Generals and Officers.  (This is not to mention the potential of the millions of civilian lives he purged, imprisoned, and murdered.)  All of this is pointed out in the classic documentary The World at War narrated by Sir Laurence Olivier.

    Remember General Patton’s dictum: The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other dumb bastard die for his country.  Soviet Russia was not good at that at all.  If the U.S. and the West would wise up and stop enabling Russia, we could follow Sun Tzu’s dictum and win without fighting.

    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Taking care of cohones so frijoles can care for themselves
    #35647

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Robert,

    Much obliged on backing up my contention on Russia’s position vis a vis technology.  Nothing I say is anything against Pushkin, Tolstoy, nesting rolly-polly dolls, and Tchaikovsky’s “Nutcracker Suite,” only the Russian regimes that have stifled the Enlightenment values of free thought, innovation and entrepreneurship for centuries.

    #35648

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    You wrote:

    And now, a lot of us are doing the same regarding the Chinese. “They aren’t creative. They steal and copy and reverse engineer.” (Detect any racism there?) Anyone who thinks the Chinese can’t be creative hasn’t take a look at the the top examples of Chinese architecture, for example.

    Pointing out the fact that Russia and China plunder intellectual property is not “racist.”  No one is making these accusations against the Western-friendly Eastern European nations or the Western-friendly “Asian Tiger” nations of Taiwan, Japan, or South Korea.  Russia and China can just as easily and volitionally adopt the Enlightenment values of free thought, innovation, and entrepreneurship if they so desire.  (And might I add, if Russia and China adopted Enlightenment values, they would only be friendly, frisky economic competitors, not mortal enemies.)

    Try not to copy this now old, tired practice of building a Strawman of “racism” where none exists.

     

    #35649

    Davis
    Moderator

    They [Chinese and Russians] aren’t creative. They steal and copy and reverse engineer.

    Obvious soft racism. Especially the “they aren’t creative” part. While it is true that China and Russia are engaging in a high level of proprietary reverse engineering, western countries do the same only the buy most of it instead of stealing (though they certainly also steal). Canada heavily borrows technology from America too…are you going to call them “not creative” for reverse engineering things? To say the Chinese aren’t creative or innovative is to close your eyes and engage in obscene cultural stereotyping. They have both (especially China) poured a ridonculous amount of money into innovative research and their own cultural trends which, no, are no just copies of American and European culture. Try to town down your soft racism or at least be more careful the way you word things. You can express that China and Russia are engaging in technological espionage without the soft racist claims that they aren’t creative or implying that the state of technology is just mooching off of western technological supremacy. May have been “slightly” the case 30 years ago. Isn’t now. LOL

    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by  Davis.
    #35652

    _Robert_
    Participant

    They [Chinese and Russians] aren’t creative. They steal and copy and reverse engineer.

    Obvious soft racism. Especially the “they aren’t creative” part. While it is true that China and Russia are engaging in a high level of proprietary reverse engineering, western countries do the same only the buy most of it instead of stealing (though they certainly also steal). Canada heavily borrows technology from America too…are you going to call them “not creative” for reverse engineering things? To say the Chinese aren’t creative or innovative is to close your eyes and engage in obscene cultural stereotyping. They have both (especially China) poured a ridonculous amount of money into innovative research and their own cultural trends which, no, are no just copies of American and European culture. Try to town down your soft racism or at least be more careful the way you word things. You can express that China and Russia are engaging in technological espionage without the soft racist claims that they aren’t creative or implying that the state of technology is just mooching off of western technological supremacy. May have been “slightly” the case 30 years ago. Isn’t now. LOL

    Yeah, the Chinese have gained much expertise over the last decade and are ahead of the west in many areas. Especially surveillance and solar.  The problem I had with them while working as an engineer is all the counterfeit electronics parts they would manufacture and dump onto the market. We spent millions trying to filter those sub-par parts out of our supply chains. We had to form a special group that would investigate….they often took components apart. I recall one capacitor was a copy of a quality 1 microfarad component, markings and all. We took some apart and literally found a smaller 0.1 microfarad cap inside, soldered between the the terminals. Basically they try to rip us off and screw up our equipment.

    #35653

    Unseen
    Participant

    Basically they try to rip us off and screw up our equipment.

    They are probably more competitors than enemies, and dirty tricks are part of the game. Business IS war. I remember Jack Tramiel, the founder of Commodore (the Commodore 64 company) saying that, though I’m sure it was said somewhere before he said it.

    I was always puzzled at the resentment over the so-called “Jap sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.” Really? So you send prior notice of an attack? “Just to let you know, in three days, December 7, we’ll be sending dozens of dive bombers to try to sink your entire Pacific Fleet. Just be prepared.”

    Yes, they had diplomats in the US supposedly negotiating something like nonaggression (I’m not going to Google it). That’s called misdirection, like our faked preparations for a nonexistent invasion on Callais.

    Anyway, if we aren’t working on ways to fuck the Chinese up, we’re incompetent.

    #35654

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Anyway, if we aren’t working on ways to fuck the Chinese up, we’re incompetent.

    That was Trump’s big thing. I think he has elevated their standing, LOL. They are more believable than him. They are basically up and running and we are still in pandemic nightmare.

    #35655

    Unseen
    Participant

    It seems that the Chinese don’t aspire to a Western ideal of creativity. According to Canadian philosopher Julianne Chung…

    …it’s commonly thought (in the West) that creativity at least aims at novelty or originality. This way of thinking about creativity isn’t universal.

    The Zhuangzi (莊子), a classical Chinese philosophical and literary text, provides a different perspective. On one interpretation, creativity isn’t conceived as aiming at novelty or originality, but rather integration. Instead of aiming at something new, it aims at something that combines well with the situation of which it’s a part.

    Read more here.

    I’m reminded of Frank Lloyd Wright’s principle that a good design for a house must fit in with its surroundings. He was an admirer of Asian architecture, BTW.

    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by  Unseen.
    #35657

    _Robert_
    Participant

    China is fascinating. Their ancient civilizations rival anything in the West. The Chinese have been invaded so many times, I think they have historically had a defensive mindset. Today’s China is very wealthy compared to just 50 or 60 years ago. While integrating the Great Leap Forward they had mass starvations (in the late 50s/early 60’s). Anywhere from 25-55 million dead. Cannibalism, wholesale torture and murder. Somehow the party survived all that. Now with their huge population under the electronic thumb of just a few, China’s entry into high tech is truly the incarnation of the “Big Brother” scenario. The AI of the CCP is watching and always learning. I would be getting several jaywalking fines a day for sure.

    The playing field is not level. You have a giant monopoly in the CCP who embrace the global markets and have a huge workforce. Can more transparent societies compete? I know that in my dealings with Chinese engineers, decisions took forever  (yes, my idiotic company was selling them our older tech). We shall see.

    #35658

    Unseen
    Participant

    Getting back to Russia (remember: top post), in today’s last address of the year (supposedly, we’ll see) Biden criticized Trump’s enslavement to Putin saying that you  can bet his administration will respond and with a view toward punishment.

    But I wonder if Putin now has some Trump cards (pun intended) up his sleeve.

    “Oh, you want to seize my holdings in (name of country). Okay. I’ll just shut off the electric grids serving the East Coast. How you like them bananas?”

    Boy, our cybersecurity defenses need a complete overhaul. For one thing, no more just popping in an “update” until its run an effective gauntlet. A supercomputer should be able to vet a software update in a matter of minutes if not seconds.

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