How well do you understand Marx? Socialism? China?

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This topic contains 25 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  Reg the Fronkey Farmer 3 days, 9 hours ago.

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  • #27660

    Unseen
    Participant

    While trying not to sound too conspiratorial I suspect that many of the “violent agitators” are actually under the control of Chinese intelligence. This allows them to use “counter terrorism” measures. Dozens of Chinese tanks and troop carriers are in Shenzhen, poised to move into Hong Kong. It is worth keeping the “3 T’s” of Tibet, Taiwan and Tienanmen in mind. This time the tanks will be moving too quickly and will run over protesters. A nation that already censors artists will have no problem re-educating dissidents in unlisted schools. What are the chances some of those schools are in “communist” North Korea? Nay, that is a bit of a stretch. Apparently Kim’s BFF is not Chinese.

    If you take a look at the world encompassing China and the U.S. in the bunch, it might be concluded that democracy just doesn’t work. I hope that isn’t true.

    #27661

    Davis
    Participant

    While trying not to sound too conspiratorial I suspect that many of the “violent agitators” are actually under the control of Chinese intelligence.

    You’d be pretty naive if you don’t take this claim, at the very least, quite seriously. Most activists and democracy campaigners, as well as the media (indirectly) pretty much take Chinese government involvement as a total given. I’m not that sure about slow police action (at the train station) but even then I wouldn’t be totally shocked. The Chinese government honestly is meticulous, insidious and relentless.

    #27662

    @davis, I take it as a given. The Chinese “Inner Party” (in Orwell’s 1984 meaning of the term) has an iron grasp on the entire society. The majority of the people (i.e. “the proles” in 1984) cannot search online for “1984” even though they can by the book in a local bookstore. Soon everything they do will be recorded and any semblance of “power to the people” will be gone.  If that means they will have reached some form of social equality in a classless society, I don’t they they will be in the sort of State Marx envisioned them to be in.

    Marx’s idea of Socialism did not mean every citizen would be deemed equal when it came to their own individual needs. It was more about (imo) having a society where each individual would have an equal opportunity of work and then to share in the rewards of that labor. But this can only be done, from the Communist viewpoint, by the elimination of private property, no labor exploitation of the labor force and by “socializing” the means of production. China’s economy is the antithesis of this. Funny how the biggest “communist” economy is a banker to the biggest “democracy”.

    China, who land grabs from its own “little red book” waving farmers, runs industrial cities with slave labor and whose president (who in 2013 was elected with a bigger percentage that Bashar al-Assad) could be president for life. Orwell’s pigs might once again look in the window and think “2 legs bad”. Marx would see little trace of his Socialism.

    #27663

    it might be concluded that democracy just doesn’t work. I hope that isn’t true.

    I think the strength of any democracy is reflected in the freedom of its press and in its tolerance for dissent.

    #27664

    Davis
    Participant

    Secular democratic countries with an open society (think humanist ideals) have been the most successful nations ever seen on Earth. Especially those which have incorporated many Marxist ideals without the hopeless Lenninist/Maoist style nightmare qualities. They win in just about every category imaginable: personal rights, health, education, wealth, tollerance, safety, law and order, justice, opportunity for personal growth, assistance for the poor and those in social need, safety nets, comprehensive health care and child benefits, religious freedom, growing equality of women, growing acceptance of other sexual identities, political pluralism, participatory politics (think referendums and city halls) and of course by far, the most valuable tool democracy offers and the only system that could possibly offer this very essential quality:

    the ability to get rid of bad/oppressive/toxic/tyrannical governments.

    There cannot be any government mechanism more important than that.

    #27665

    Unseen
    Participant

    Secular democratic countries with an open society (think humanist ideals) have been the most successful nations ever seen on Earth. Especially those which have incorporated many Marxist ideals without the hopeless Lenninist/Maoist style nightmare qualities.

    That’s what I found myself, to my surprise, liking about Prof. Wolff’s Marxism. He’s for worker participation and even approval over company decisions, not for sending us off to collective farms for reeducation.

    #27666

    Unseen
    Participant

    It seems to me, if we are to avoid China bringing its governmental policies to the entire world, we all need to stop buying Chinese goods. Perhaps if the free world were to help India take its place. India is an imperfect democracy and  a backward society for the most part which could supply inexpensive labor that would nevertheless improve the lives of Indians dramatically. Sure, it can sound dreadful to be paying less than $2/hr to workers in China or India (Google tells me that Apple’s Chinese assembly line workers earn $1.85/hr), but as dismal as that sounds to Americans and Europeans, I’m pretty sure that people will line up to get the work in India as they do in China.

    You need to take the cost of living into account as well. I pay $3 to $5 for a loaf of bread, bot I’m sure an equivalent amount of Indian bread (by weight, perhaps) costs far less than that. Here in Portland, Oregon, a one-bedroom apartment runs about $1200/mo. I know that the Indians who’d jump at the chance to work on an electronics assembly line aren’t paying anything like that, if they are paying anything at all. Our companies could insist that workers not work more than 8 hour days on a regular basis (there as here, paid overtime might be needed sometimes), be given reasonable rest breaks, and opportunities to rise in the organization as well. In China’s FoxConn, apparently 12/hr days are the norm and I seem to remember that they don’t even get to go home at the end of the day (many come from far away anyway), but sleep in dormitory-style bunk rooms.

    If we don’t do something, our great or great great grandchildren may be living under a future successor of Xi Jinping.

    #27693

    Unseen
    Participant

    #27694

    Unseen
    Participant

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  Unseen.
    #27712

    Unseen
    Participant

    #27839

    While trying not to sound too conspiratorial I suspect that many of the “violent agitators” are actually under the control of Chinese intelligence. This allows them to use “counter terrorism” measures.

    Now it happens and the Chinese won’t care.

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