How well do you understand Marx? Socialism? China?

Homepage Forums Politics How well do you understand Marx? Socialism? China?

This topic contains 25 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  Reg the Fronkey Farmer 3 days, 9 hours ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 26 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #27640

    Unseen
    Participant

    • This topic was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  Unseen.
    #27645

    Ivy
    Participant

    That’s like three separate topics LOL where do you want to start?

    #27646

    Keep your eyes on the events in Hong Kong over the next few days and you will learn much about China. Or you could go to school somewhere in Xinjiang to learn first hand.

    #27647

    Ivy
    Participant

    I admittedly don’t know a lot about China. And I don’t really understand what’s going on in Hong Kong. That’s one side of the world I know very little about

    #27648

    Ivy
    Participant

    The extent that I know about China is that I have a friend who is a Chinese American. She’s Buddhist. And I think she’s some sort of concubine for her temple’s Master. All I know is that we used to hang out a lot. But right now he’s in town… And she’s tied up every weekend. We used to spend a lot of time together with our sons. I tried to help her see that she could make a ton of money selling cemetery property because she speaks Mandarin. She decided not to pursue it because of all of her superstitions about “working around dead people.” (She was all for it until she talks to somebody in her temple). It’s really too sad because the poor girl could have made a killing. Chinese people know how to honor their dead 😂

    And that is literally the extent of my knowledge

    #27649

    Unseen
    Participant

    Keep your eyes on the events in Hong Kong over the next few days and you will learn much about China. Or you could go to school somewhere in Xinjiang to learn first hand.

    Not defending China here, but do you think the US government would have let protests like this, throwing the economy for a loop, closing a major airport, go on for nearly this long?

    Dr. Wolff s a Marxist economist, so in a country like ours where Marx represents all that is bad—you know, all that Communism stuff—it’s surprising, perhaps, that he sometimes makes a lot of sense.

    He believes Marx is no different than a lot of philosophers in that you can take what works and leave what doesn’t. Wolff would not have us go packing off to communes to work and be reeducated. He’s not for government ownership of industries, either, though he’d certainly want some regulation and control over who gets compensated and how much, that in the interest of justice and fairness. He’d require worker membership on companies’ boards with major decisions being subject to workers’ votes of approval. Want to get rid of the toxic concentration of wealth in the hands of a few? Do you have a better idea?

    Anyway, his discussion of whether China even is a socialist or Marxist economy and why it grows two or three times faster than the American economy is interesting. And it has little to do with “stealing” technology. Yea, it does involve taking advantage of its cheap labor force, but it has more to do with strategic choices it made decades ago which are bearing fruit today and will likely make China the preeminent economy and power in the world in a few decades.

    One advantage they will have as long as we operate under our political system IS long-term planning. Our politicians only have a short time before they have to worry about being reelected or looking for another job. Trump has shown that there is no such thing as a guarantee of a long-term plan here, because the President or a change in the political complexion of Congress can upset the apple cart overnight.

    As for stealing technology, Wolff says that is part of their bargain with US manufacturers: “You want to sell in our market? You want to use our labor force? Okay, but only if you share your technology with us.” Have they done some corporate spying and reverse engineering? Yes, but I don’t thing American companies are above that, do you? If we haven’t in the past, as China develops new technologies beyond our own, I’m pretty sure we’ll get it by hook or by crook.

    Business is war.

    #27650

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Business is war.

    The Chinese government and businesses can take the long term view. The US government is always concerned about elections and businesses need to win quarter to quarter. It is all short term, that’s why all the joint ventures with China.  Score and run managers.

    Incidentally it seems private Americans don’t plan long term either. Lots and lots of boomers who did not contribute much to their 401K. Many have little savings beyond home equity and no pensions. Old folks will be living in vans down by the river. Socialism may become more popular, LOL.

    #27651

    Unseen
    Participant

    Incidentally it seems private Americans don’t plan long term either. Lots and lots of boomers who did not contribute much to their 401K. Many have little savings beyond home equity and no pensions. Old folks will be living in vans down by the river. Socialism may become more popular, LOL.

    The economy that allowed everyone to do that slipped away as more and more of the money in the economy has trickled UP. Chief among the increased costs for boomers is the cost of health care, in case you want to know where a lot of potential retirement savings has gone.

    Yes, for a lot of boomers, socialism may be starting to look good.

    #27652

    Davis
    Participant

    I admire what the protesters are doing in Hong Kong very much and they are bloody idiots if the give up now. China is a growing menace. There was a time when one thought China was doing things extremely intelligently with a slow inching towards more freedom and openess. Their semi-control of the economy was extremely well managed, responsibly with heavy infrastructure development and social improvements and some small rights have been given to citizens. Their interational relations was built on gaining trust from countries (especially in Africa) by helping them develop infrastructure and setting up trade links. However with their growing economic and political power, they have started the bullying. Most especially with Australia, New Zealand and Canada. For example they have gone utterly bezerk over the arrest of the Huawei CEO in Canada over US claims of fraud. They arrested two Canadians in China the next week one of them facing the death penalty all done under false pretenses of pure judicial manipulation with promises of normalcy if this powerful and influential woman was released from Canada (the CEO). They’ve threatened economic punishments with Australia and put immense political pressure on New Zealand. They’ve encouraged Chinese students in the US to counter rallies in support of Hong Kong on US campuses, including condoning (to some extent) intimidation and violence. This all points to the absolute opposite of a slow and steady shift towards freedoms and liberalizations. The personal interests of a powerful business leader over national trade and the creation of international conflict with dubious results. The developed world could easily reign in China if they had a united front. But small individual countries are unwilling to pay a short term cost for an extremely beneficial long term gain.

    Hong Kongers would be extremely stupid to capitulate to China and give us their rights those on the mainland don’t have (and may never have). The Chinese government is relentless. Mainland Chinese are utterly brainwashed into thinking that government control is invariably a good thing and that democratic ideas simply won’t work in China. Hmm. They worked perfectly find among Chinese majorities in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore. Their neighbours South Korea and Japan are also successful open societies. There is no reason it wouldn’t work in China and greatly benefit them. Hong Kongers know that if China does something extreme to counter protests in Hong Kong they will pay a huge economic and political price from first world countries who will draw the line at China not just forbidding rights in their own mainland prison but in a long standing democratic state. However they also are enraged that a part of China (even if it is a small autonomous reigion with special rights) defy China the way they do. They don’t want to set a precedent that violence in a Chinese territory works against government policy or let mainlanders think they can have minds of their own. The question is will they be smart in what they do or not? Will Hong Kongers give up and let their rights be erroded? I have nothing but admiration for their unyielding protest. Your freedom, human rights and the open society can dissappear in the snap of the fingers when under threat and complacency. My fingers are crossed.

    #27653

    While trying not to sound too conspiratorial I suspect that many of the “violent agitators” are actually under the control of Chinese intelligence. This allows them to use “counter terrorism” measures. Dozens of Chinese tanks and troop carriers are in Shenzhen, poised to move into Hong Kong. It is worth keeping the “3 T’s” of Tibet, Taiwan and Tienanmen in mind.  This time the tanks will be moving too quickly and will run over protesters. A nation that already censors artists will have no problem re-educating dissidents in unlisted schools.

    What are the chances some of those schools are in “communist” North Korea? Nay, that is a bit of a stretch. Apparently Kim’s BFF is not Chinese.

    #27654

    That picture above reminds me of a Bill Maher “New Rule” on how the economy now operates.

     

    #27655

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Bill Maher has it nailed as usual. Trump even got to hear a bit of Bill last week and of course he trashed him, LOL.

    #27656

    Yes, apparently Trump happened to “accidentally” watch the show 🙂

    #27658

    Ivy
    Participant

    It is really true though. You’re either poor or you’re rich. If you try to be anything in between your fucked. I’ve been trying to get a better paying job, and I just landed one… Realizing that I’m going to have to now pay for my own medical care… And seriously I’m like.. “What’s the fucking point. I may as well stay in poverty.” That’s how it feel sometimes. When you try to do better you end up worse off. That’s how they keep you on welfare and that’s how it’s easy for people to give up at the bottom.

    #27659

    _Robert_
    Participant

    My coworker buddies always made fun of my very small Victorian house out in the sticks. They were paying more in taxes than my mortgage. My galley kitchen would be hated as much as the lack of a “great room”. However our tiny house has so much ‘character’ that when people visit they tend to walk around from room to room for an hour or so just observing the various oddities that are at home in such a house. I do at times wish I lived in a place like Greece, Scotland, Spain, Ireland, or Italy with so much history. And they live small there. I admire that.

    Fossils are my favorite collectables. Also old fishing reels and Spanish “Pieces of Eight” from the sunken 1715 fleet; traded for a 6-pack right off the local treasure hunting boats. Add to that all of the NASA artifacts found at local thrift shops here on the Space Coast. Plus the three acre garden and pond; such that an old golf cart helps one get around. Well my buddies are all still working and I am home sipping bourbon.

    Many Americans will be downsizing (against their will) soon. The short lived empire is crumbling. The lesson will be that pure greed does not a society make.

     

     

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 26 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.