"If you can prove God exists, I'll resign"

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This topic contains 92 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by  jakelafort 3 months ago.

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  • #29572

    mike
    Participant

    Its easy to prove the existence of something in the cosmos that is referred to as God by the religious. Just take some DMT. Just do a high-dose acid-trip, (Dr. Christopher Bache) or over five grams of magic-mushrooms or peyote. Talk to a Shaman or a Guru: a practitioner of meditation who has achieved nirvana. Just ask the 100,000 people-per-year who have near-death experiences. Ask the doctors and nurses who are swept-up uncontrollably into the NDE of their patients against their will. Ask Natives who have gone on vision quests. Ask the scientists (Dr. Dean Radin or Dr. Tom Campbell) who study para-normal events. Ask the experimenters to explain the placebo-effect, whereby the mind creates an intention that alters its physical reality; much in common with prayer (believe it or not).
    What do all the above experiences have in common? Each individual has had a disconnect between the material-mind and consciousness. When the brain is made to go “off-line” consciousness can be experienced to exist outside of the brain. The brain is seen as a metaphorical receiver of what amounts to a conscious experience, thereby demonstrating the fundamental nature of consciousness.

    This ritual of incapacitating the link between brain and consciousness has been used for millennia to elucidate an experience that some malign as mere hallucinations. Historical examples abound, but one interesting one relates to Christianity and the practice of Baptism. John the Baptist would immerse his followers under the water and essentially drown them. Some disciples would be unrevivable after the experience, but John was proficient in his technique; immersing believers just long enough to initiate a near-death experience. “I have seen the light” would be a common phrase uttered during this life-changing event. This same light is described by all the above methods of disconnect.

    When separation occurs, the individual can be launched into a learning experience whereby entities, too complex to be made-up by an over active imagination, teach that our consciousness is part of a greater Universal Consciousness…better known as God to the religious, the Source to the spiritual, or the Universal Consciousness to Idealist, etc. The crazy thing in a “shared” DMT trip or a “shared” NDE is that both participants see the same entities and learn the same lessons. None of this evidence is new.

    René Descartes, Spinoza and Leibniz and even Einstein believed that the cosmos acts, as one might interpret as a God, if you lack a better word. We now know that outside of Space/Time a Universal Consciousness exists and all life in the cosmos is connected to this Being/God/Source/Creator/Digital system…we being a small pinched off experiential unit here on this small planet inside Space/Time. Do not deny it until you have taken the ”trip” yourself. But you can keep your position regardless…because we like your vibe.

    #29573

    @mike: Its easy to prove the existence of something in the cosmos that is referred to as God by the religious.

    I would agree if the wording was changed to:

    Its easy to subjectively prove the existence of something in the cosmos that is referred to as God by the religious.

    All such experiences are completely subjective because they happen only within the mind of the person experiencing them. Even during my trips induced with over 200 shrooms or 4 or more LSD tabs I was self aware to know that I was having subjective experiences even when I believed I was discovering some universal truth or revealed secret. I took them not to get “out of my head” but to get into it and explore what was happening. I would say that from all of those experiences I discovered myself, not some god. I would have called it mystical or “deep man” if I did not know what was happening. Tune in but don’t drop out.

    #29575

    mike
    Participant

    Ok…very interesting…you have had more experiences of the disconnect sort than anyone I have talked to personally… so when I ask the following questions please be aware I seek only education and in no way am I refuting your experience. The point is then that they are not always reported as subjective…

    1: Have you heard about the experiences of Dr. Christopher Bache (If not please listen to The human experience Podcast: episode 147) High dose LSD research…

    2: How would you explain your brain conjuring up a universal truth? How did your cognition discover truths that are not in any way obvious and in everyway unique to anything you could make up. Please don’t say “an over-active imagination” (although I may accept that may be the only plausible explanation).

    3: Did you ever feel like you had died in one of your sessions (ego death) and were then instructed in an out of body sort of way?

    4: Terrance McKenna describes group sessions where more than one person experiences the same lessons and the same entities…that is no longer a “subjective” experience right?

    5: How would you explain countless examples of share NDE’s by patient and Doctors and nurses…they all see the “light” and report these non-subjective experiences independently.

    I wrote that in five minutes so (they may not be the best questions I could have asked) I have a lot more questions coming if you are willing to have your thoughts and experiences put under the microscope.

    #29577

    Ivy
    Participant

    @Reg

    Gods are only subjectively real to those that come to belief that they are.

    I disagree with that statement. If God exists it doesn’t really matter whether one does or doesn’t “believe”

    It is good that more and more of the younger generations no longer do.

    I disagree with that statement also. That’s basically taking the stance that society is better off as a whole deciding God doesn’t exist and going a step further in saying that’s a good thing implying that society was worse off when we did believe in God. I don’t think that is accurate or true. I think we are where we are because of our belief in God not in spite of it.

    #29578

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Reg, you say you would agree with Mike if one word were added-SUBJECTIVELY. I would change the word proof to believe. It is easy to subjectively believe..

    Proof and subjectivity are at odds.

    #29579

    @ Ivy

    Gods are only subjectively real to those that come to belief that they are.

    I disagree with that statement. If God exists it doesn’t really matter whether one does or doesn’t “believe”.

    If your God (or any god) actually existed then “believing” in his or their existence is irrelevant. It does not become a consideration. Faith is no longer required. People can either accept or reject (deny) the reality of this self evident god or not. However your God is not self evident. There is no objective reason to accept the statement that “God is real”. You even used the words “If God exists” because you don’t know for sure. You have faith in what other people tell you or in what you have discerned for yourself. But it is an entirely subjective personal experience. Yes, millions more have similar experiences but they too are subjective. That is why everyone has “A personal relationship with God”. This makes the existence of gods appear real, but only for the people who have come to believe, on faith, that “he” is real.

    When theists tell me that they can hold telepathic conversations with the Creator of the Universe in order for “Him” to change his plan for them or that they are to become immortals in less than a hundred years time they are only giving me their opinion. That is, their subjective belief. It does not matter how convinced they are about it, it is still subjective. God exists only in their mind because they have convinced themselves of this.

    #29580

    @ Ivy

    It is good that more and more of the younger generations no longer do.

    I disagree with that statement also.

    However  it is still the truth, especially in the “Western world”.

    I absolutely contend that the world would be a better place without religion. But it would take too long to explain why here so maybe another post is required.

    #29581

    @jakelafort,

    Yes, I stand corrected. It may appear to be proven as it is a subjective experience, “belief” is the correct word.  A case of obiter dictum 🙂

    #29582

    jakelafort
    Participant

    @Reg,

    Law, horse racing, literature, poetry, Sunday school, drug-induced euphoria, drug-induced discovery, anti-theism; the gods know beyond my limited purview. Have you no shame?
    or
    I was carping, being a little baby bitch (baby bastard to be politically preferable) Sorry bout dat.
    or
    Fail to respond having been mildly chastised as you count coup.

    #29583

    @jakelafortI was carping……hmmm or possibly attempting to create a precedent for future argument, even a binding element whose ratio decidendi would be unwittingly defined by today’s comments. I see the hook through the bait for that carp. 🙂

    Have you no shame?

    I will ask my local Catholic bishop if I should have some. He should know about such matters!! Soon as I finish what I am doing.

     

    #29584

    mike
    Participant

    Somehow the main idea I was trying to convey was lost in the abyss of subjective experience. “Cognition and “religious”, “spiritual”, or “hallucinogenic” visions are to people like “air and breathing”. The history of theism is integral to Homo sapiens. The reason we evolved parallel to belief in a higher power is because of this weird ability of our brains to conjure up visions that are so real, so meaningfully complex, so unlike anything we are capable of inventing by our subjective imaginations that some people believe them to be “gifts” from the God/s.

    Picture our ancient ancestors, of 30,000 years ago, having an NDE or a hallucinogenic experience. Imagine how real a lucid dream or induced vision would seem to them. What mainstream theists and non-theist fail to see is that all our biblical and cultural myths are a result of this disconnect between brain and consciousness…let me state this clearly with examples…

    -the “sermon on the mount” was given after Jesus went off on a vision-quest induced by an age-old method of several days fasting…disconnect; and a little talk with Universal consciousness entity (God) and results are history.

    -repeated: John the Baptist induces NDE’s and hundreds “see the light” including Jesus.

    -Native Americans of all tribes throughout the world and throughout the ages, independently, pass down visions, given to them by Spirit Guides, explaining their entire historical culture; all brought to them by psychedelic experiences with hallucinogenic compounds.

    -Buddha goes off on an extreme meditation session (reaches out to nirvana) and has visionary experiences (lessons from the Source) that become his mainstream ideology.

    – Mohammed uses the starvation technique and receives the Quran from Gabriel.

    -Mosses “trips out” and sees a talking, burning bush teach him 10 commandments.

    -Dr. Christopher Bache uses 73 high doses of LSD and discovers the profound meaning of existence and the purpose of the universe.

    -Ayahuasca tea used for centuries, by Amazonian cultures as part of religious and healing ceremonies, to this day, allows us to speak with the Gods, (Universal Consciousness) and receive their revelations.

    Can you see the connection now? Are our legends, myths, religious teaching, inseparable products of over active imaginations…are these experiences to be seen as just subjective tricks of brain anatomy (atoms)…or… is it our communion with a fundamental Universal Consciousness that is seeding us with grandiose visions; whenever we induce this separation of our brain from our consciousness?

    #29585

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Mike, that is a leap followed by a leap.

    If i understand, it is your contention that mind-altering drugs/physical deprivation enable humans to access something otherwise inaccessible-namely god and or gods. Also you are asserting that using the aforementioned we are able to SEE universal and therefore true (idk world of gods) that our unaided imagination can not conjure or envision.

    Clearly the last part is untrue. There is nothing about gods that are beyond our imagination. Even a dullard can handle that. Abrahamic gods are so clearly created in our image. Just fuckin pricks like we are-even worse and referred to as he. No imagination used at all. Then the Hindu gods are representations of among other things what we see in our day to day world-like the monkey god. Again no imagination whatsoever. The eastern stuff is a little more imaginative but it is hardly beyond our imagination.

    As to the first assertion i am not aware of any truth to it. If you can prove any of that you can write yourself a bestseller. Even if you can make a half-assed case there are so many drooling for affirmation of their lunacy that it will sell big time.

    You have said some other things i don’t buy but i will leave it at that.

    #29586

    Hallucinogens do not “expand the mind”. They alter our perception of the world. They are mind altering but there is no world of secrets that we enter into when we take them. I have known people to take a trip but never to fully return. I could always tell what was an hallucination but not everyone can. I am able to remain self aware so I can analyze my thought processes. But, as I mentioned before, too many people take them to get out of their mind, not to get into it, where, at least for me, the real fun happens.

    People – like those susceptible to hypnosis – are also susceptible to being “guided” and when in a group they can experience what appears to be the same hallucination as others in the group, especially when followed up with afterwards. It happens in the same mental compartment where theists claim to all see moving statues or the Sun spinning. They are in a highly suggestive state already so it is easy to get them to believe something. But like religion it is a delusional state of mind.  There is some medical value in using small doses to help people cope with certain experiences – like PTSD and to alter how they perceive past events.

    The visions of the gods the tribal shaman saw hark back to the origins of personal gods. For centuries religious belief was based on ideas of  animism and all their gods had animal features. They all had visions, some induced by drugs and some by mental illness.

    Mohammed uses the starvation technique and receives the Quran from Gabriel.

    Not sure how accurate that statement is. I understand it very differently.

    -Dr. Christopher Bache uses 73 high doses of LSD and discovers the profound meaning of existence and the purpose of the universe.

    Did he or did he just report his subjective experience??

    are these experiences to be seen as just subjective tricks of brain anatomy….

    Yes, but “tricks” may not best describe it. They are real experiences but they are entirely subjective. It is how we interpret them that is the problem. No matter how profound they appear at the time we should remember they are just “trips” and our memories of them are the souvenirs we bring back with us. Be careful as humans are easily misled when they fall thought the “trapdoors of perception”.

    “LSD is a psychedelic drug which occasionally causes psychotic behavior in people who have NOT taken it.”

    Timothy Leary.

    Ok, time for my breakfast.

    #29587

    mike
    Participant

    First everything I propose here is based on years of digesting a vast array of podcasts, lectures, debates, studies and books. Nothing I am about to say comes from personal experience. I try to meditate, but never get anywhere…I try hallucinogens, but never enough to achieve a disconnect. I have never had a near-death experience(NDE). However, I am in a unique situation where I can gather huge collections of data and conceptually use a meta-analysis approach to combine the results from multiple sources, in-an-effort-to increase the power of individual ideas; improving estimates of effect and thereby resolving uncertainty when reports disagree: i.e. I have a good bullshit detector.

    So yes Jaklafort; I realize that this is a mouthful and hard to take in one gulp…but here it goes….it is my contention that consciousness is fundamental (outside space/time) in the cosmos. Space/time (where we are now, and all life and matter in all the galaxies resides) is an informational construct that our individuated consciousnesses bring into existence. Our neural anatomy simply provides a temporary home for our consciousness; to a greater or lesser degree in all organisms. When we die (or disconnect from our biological hardware) our consciousness re-establishes a connection with the Universal Consciousness U.C. and becomes aware, temporarily, that we are a very small part of a cosmological entity; some may think of as God, Source, or digital system, U.C., etc. Anyone can access this Universal Consciousness by disconnecting in all the ways I have already mentioned but Ayahuasca or NDE is a most reliable way to get there.

    And before you call me nasty names for proposing this, to be fair and not just dismissive, you would have to read a book or two and listen to a few key lectures, or do an Ayahuasca session. Needless-to-say, I am aware that in-order-to substantiate such a claim I would have to write a book or two. I only say this is what I have come to believe after spending years as a hard-core materialist. Now I can identify as a partial Idealist. Is it true??? Who knows…one day I will try Ayahuasca and let you know what I discover for myself.

    If you are interested… a partial list of relevant names (in no particular order or stature) of people that propose similar hypothesis, or have added key insights and/or evidence, follow… but I realize this list is overwhelming and not many have enough time or interest to listen to anything they have to say…regardless…
    Dr. Rupert Sheldrake
    Dr. Max Tegmark
    Prof. Philip Goff
    Dr. Donald Hoffman
    Prof. David Deutsch
    Dr. Antonio Damasio
    Dr. David Chalmers
    Dr. Dennis Mckenna
    Terrance Mckenna
    Dr. Christopher Bache
    Graham Hancock
    Dr. Eben Alexander
    Dr. Dean Radin
    Dr. Dawson Church
    Randall Carlson
    Dr. Albert Einstein
    Timothy Leary
    Dr. Tom Campbell
    Wim Hof
    Dr. Bruce Lipton
    Anil Seth
    Raymond Moody
    Gautama Buddha

    #29588

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Mike,

    You remind me of Deepak Chopra. I won’t call ya names. And you are a half-decent sophist. Woops, was that a name? However there are places in your writing in which logic fails. On the other hand if you take it on the road the majority of your audience may not be aware.

    The universe may well be more Alice in Wonderland than we can ever know. On other hand those who think they have a handle on it are almost surely mistaken.

    How does Einstein get on your list?

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