Sunday School 5th December 2021

[—Participant]

It’s unclear to what extent that may apply here.

The previous iteration prevented three things: i) conversion therapy on a minor (including taking them out of the country for the purpose of conversion therapy), ii) coercive or involuntary conversion therapy regardless of age, iii) advertising or charging for conversion therapy services.

The current version makes it illegal to practice conversion therapy on anyone regardless of their age. Some think preventing adults from voluntarily undergoing conversion therapy may be unconstitutional. I am ambivalent. An adult who consents is responsible for themselves. However, it’s false to present conversion practices as therapy, and it does typically result in abuse despite not being able to actually do what it advertises. It’s like offering therapeutic massage for cancer and then tossing the person unknowingly into an MMA fight to get the crap kicked out of them.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Autumn i get your ambivalence. The notion of having the state interfere with citizens in the way they live is normally anathema.

In terms of fairness i am fine with upholding the constitutionality. I would go further and be fine with banning conversion therapy. Something so fundamental to a person’s sense of self and actual self ought not be tampered to further the ideology of Christians.  As far as i am aware conversion lacks any semblance of validity and it has a detrimental impact on the individual post conversion along with stoking homophobia.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Jake,

I know at it’s height in the 1920s, the Klan was a maximum of 6,000,000 and politicians at all levels were beholden to and scared of them.. Today, the Klan is a maximum of 8,000 and doesn’t have enough clout to get dry-cleaning service for their sheets.

Simple math (which is hard, I know) means that the Klan was 750 times bigger in the 1920s than now, and that today’s Klan is .0013333333 percent of the Klan in the 1920s. In other words, today’s Klan is a husk of it’s former self.

Ku Klux Klan–Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

And no “goats, sheep, or minkies” were harmed in the provision of this math, M’sieur.

Speak for yourself about going down the drain. I’m thoroughly on the outside and spraying the scrubbing bubble stuff.

• This reply was modified 4 years ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: "The crux of the biscuit is in the apostrophe." --Frank Zappa

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Autumn,

Good to see you back.

Whatever your feelz or anyone else’s on the QAnon Queen, the Mounties have to deal with threats like that because Bob and Doug McKinzie cannot.

Men (mostly) with badges and guns, and within Constitutional or legal limits, are all that’s between civilization and barbarism. Even dealing with police brutality requires dealing with a higher level of police.

It may not be the hero you want, but it’s hero you and all of us need. Defunding means death qnd destruction.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Enco,

My point is that granting unbridled speech of the most virulent racist kind with those historical references to vicious lies and baseless propaganda is utterly without value as an idea-more significantly it enables the escalation of irrational hatred to a degree that boils over into violence. It has happened  agin n agin and will into the future. I brought up the great numbers of KKK cuz it is just one among many shining examples of the impact of free speech for the hate groups.

How many genocides before and after the KKK’s height? How many millions have died who might have survived if the state had taken its priorities not in terms of mindless principles like you have espoused. (the free marketplace of ideas is so patently BS and to a lesser degree so is eternal vigilance and the like) If instead the state prioritized the lives of the most vulnerable citizens we would have a more rational nation. It really is a balancing of interests. For my money fuck the free speech of those bent on recruiting scum to join scum in an effort to calumniate, reduce, humiliate, exile, murder the vulnerable. Fuck em hard far and wide.

I am not minimizing the value of free speech. If a nation is utterly deprived of it the nation is SOL. It is just that free speech is not as many have portrayed it a right that is without limitations. The fact that free speech is so important speaks volumes about humanity. I can’t stand the blind allegiance to cherished principles that as a practical matter are failing us miserably.

If i were critiquing my assertions i would say that when the government censors, prosecutes and disallows the aforementioned hate speech it has the opposite effect. It makes the stymied group more insistent on asserting their rights and makes martyrs out of em and thereby causes even more interest in their cause. I would gladly take my chances as the current formula has shown its worth.

[—Participant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Autumn, Good to see you back. Whatever your feelz or anyone else’s on the QAnon Queen, the Mounties have to deal with threats like that because Bob and Doug McKinzie cannot.

They haven’t really dealt with her. There is an entire network out there believing they are existing in some alternative (or perhaps to their minds truer) Canadian state which is at odds with the existing state. That idea is difficult to quash once it’s in the minds of extremists. Even addressing Didulo alone is difficult within the framework of the system until she actually does something substantial. But if she were arrested (or died in a police raid), then it’s a bit of a coin toss as to whether this clams the storm, or if it martyrs her emboldening the handful of radicals who would actually try to go through their nonsense.

Bob and Doug McKenzie may actually stand a better shot as Moranis and Thomas have experience reaching out to people with a positive and entertaining message.

Men (mostly) with badges and guns, and within Constitutional or legal limits, are all that’s between civilization and barbarism. Even dealing with police brutality requires dealing with a higher level of police. It may not be the hero you want, but it’s hero you and all of us need. Defunding means death qnd destruction.

They are enforcers of the state now, as they were when we were at the height of decimating and subjugating civilizations with acts of death and destruction. There are limited instances where their skill sets are of need, but are ill-suited to meet many of the challenges with which they are tasked.

[_Robert_Participant]

Yep, conservatives always miss the part where those ‘defunded’ funds go to a much better suited resource. Cops constantly dealing with mentally ill persons for instance is a caustic misallocation. I mean really…if people have access to health/mental care, affordable housing and living wages, they will not resort to crime. But no, can’t have that. Christians know people are bad, the book says it and their leaders and flock want to dole out their goodwill as they please and revel in the masses of sufferers so they can feel charitable.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Jake,

You obviously didn’t read a thing I said.

Expressing an opinion does not equal communicating threats to extort, kidnap, and murder.

Peaceful assembly does not equal forming international terrorist gangs.

And keeping and bearing arms for self-defense, hunting, or sport does not equal using arms to commit extortion, kidnapping, and murder.

It’s pretty clear that my use of free speech and expression does you no good, nor does your free speech and expression do you any good.

• This reply was modified 4 years ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling. Not that proper spelling does any good here

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Autumn,

She has done something substantial i.e.death and kidnapping threats against medical personnel who give care to children, and extortion threats to businesses and governments across national borders, and organizing “duck hunters” to carry out her threats.

And The Mounties did something substantial by arresting her and one of her minions, with more minions sure to follow. Arrest the shepherd and the sheep have no orders. With no orders, they either don’t act or do something stupid to reveal their location where they can be apprehended.

Bob and Doug McKenzie may actually stand a better shot as Moranis and Thomas have experience reaching out to people with a positive and entertaining message.

And you believe that hoser notion would work with international terrorists?
You don’t get out much, do you? Take off. 😁

They are enforcers of the state now, as they were when we were at the height of decimating and subjugating civilizations with acts of death and destruction. There are limited instances where their skill sets are of need, but are ill-suited to meet many of the challenges with which they are tasked.

In the hands of a tyranny, police are a dangerous gang capable of murdering millions. In the hands of a limited government in service of Life, Liberty, and Property, police are a boon.

Even a society where all citizens are armed still needs police because not everyone has a Crime Scene Investigation lab in their Ford F-150 or their basement bunker. We still have to defer to experts on some things to make efforts against crime orderly and directed by reason rather than whim.

And police see more God-destroying things in a single day than most of us probably see in a too-short lifetime. I’m sure quite a few are Atheists in their cups.

So, yes, we should Watch the Watchmen to see they don’t go wrong, but also respect them when they do the right thing, such as by nabbing this Qwazy QAnon “Queen.”

Now get out more, enjoy your day, and please tip the fedora to Ossifer Friendly.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Robert,

Even if you did send out a Psychiatrist or a Social Worker to a patient or client, you’d still need police nearby if the patient or client turned violent on the Psychiatrist or Social Worker.

So this “Defund The Police” crap wouldn’t work even if it were carried out the way Progressives said when they moved the goalposts on what “Defund The Police” means.

I mean really…if people have access to health/mental care, affordable housing and living wages, they will not resort to crime. But no, can’t have that. Christians know people are bad, the book says it and their leaders and flock want to dole out their goodwill as they please and revel in the masses of sufferers so they can feel charitable.

The whole aftermath of The New Deal, The Fair Deal, The Great Society, and The “War On Poverty” shows that the West Side Story line “we are depraved because we are deprived” is simply not true.

My Grandpa was an FDR New Dealer and he still contended: “You take a son-of-a- bitch, give him money, food, clothing, a place to stay, and a car, and all you got is a rich, well-fed, well-clothed, well-housed son-of-a-bith with a way around.” Character counts.

And Christianity is a part of that problem too because the churches suck on the Government Cheese tit by taking tax money for “Faith-Based Initiatives.” Government tax money certainly hasn’t made them any less “sons-of-bitches.”

[—Participant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Arrest the shepherd and the sheep have no orders. With no orders, they either don’t act or do something stupid to reveal their location where they can be apprehended.

Both people detained by the police are currently free. It’s not clear if she was even charged with anything. Even without her, people are primed and ready to go, growing impatient, though the overwhelming majority of her followers are unlikely to really do anything one way or the other.

There are a number of similar organizations out there in Canada right now. People who feel alienated or disempowered or like the world they knew is spinning out of control or perhaps have delusional fantasies of being important in a revolution or are more than a little fucked in the head.

And you believe that hoser notion would work with international terrorists? You don’t get out much, do you? Take off.

I understand this in jest, but you are not in a position to talk so patronizingly to me. The RCMP and other policing agencies are largely reactive. They can monitor threats, but until certain lines are crossed, there is little they can actually do. And what they can do often requires levels of surveillance many aren’t comfortable with. But it does little to address root issues of why so many thousands of people are fixated on her message. With 73k followers, I doubt all are sincere, and certainly they aren’t all domestic, but currently there are probably at least hundreds in Canada who needed some help before they got to this point, and still need help now. They are not going to get it through policing.

In the hands of a tyranny, police are a dangerous gang capable of murdering millions. In the hands of a limited government in service of Life, Liberty, and Property, police are a boon. Even a society where all citizens are armed still needs police because not everyone has a Crime Scene Investigation lab in their Ford F-150 or their basement bunker. We still have to defer to experts on some things to make efforts against crime orderly and directed by reason rather than whim.

We do have to defer to experts, but these are not the experts. They are mostly generalists tasked with an unreasonable mission based on an antiquated model of crime mitigation and harm prevention. The police are ineffective at responding to things like domestic abuse, yet we keep relying on them. The police have been downright deadly when responding to people in mental health crises, yet we keep relying on them. The police have had a toxic influence where poverty, substance abuse, sex work, and marginalized communities are concerned yet we keep relying on them. And while we do have forensic scientists and crime scene investigators who are specialists and experts, they have limited resources, and their work can easily be nullified by an inefficient policing and judicial system. And we haven’t even gotten started on correctional facilities.

As I said, there are limited situations where police forces do make sense. There are emergency situations where potentially lethal force is the necessary response. But their ability to use such force complicates the other duties they’ve been assigned. And these things need to be decoupled so you don’t end up with scenarios where people wonder if they’re going to get shot by a cop when they’ve been pulled over for a speeding ticket.

Now get out more, enjoy your day, and please tip the fedora to Ossifer Friendly.

It degrades you to talk so dismissively. Have more pride in yourself.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Enco,

My perspicuity is enveloped in assiduity.  Pretty feckin sure i understood you and know your positions on these issues quite well.

You missed the point of my citing the KKK. Missed it even though it was a fastball without movement right down the middle. So i explained it. Went past you again while you were spitting chewing tobacco at the umpire.

It is a fool’s errand attempting to make you question your neatly packaged ideology.  Color me a fool.  Fool’s gonna take a break from his errand.

[_Robert_Participant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Robert, Even if you did send out a Psychiatrist or a Social Worker to a patient or client, you’d still need police nearby if the patient or client turned violent on the Psychiatrist or Social Worker. So this “Defund The Police” crap wouldn’t work even if it were carried out the way Progressives said when they moved the goalposts on what “Defund The Police” means.

I mean really…if people have access to health/mental care, affordable housing and living wages, they will not resort to crime. But no, can’t have that. Christians know people are bad, the book says it and their leaders and flock want to dole out their goodwill as they please and revel in the masses of sufferers so they can feel charitable.

The whole aftermath of The New Deal, The Fair Deal, The Great Society, and The “War On Poverty” shows that the West Side Story line “we are depraved because we are deprived” is simply not true. My Grandpa was an FDR New Dealer and he still contended: “You take a son-of-a- bitch, give him money, food, clothing, a place to stay, and a car, and all you got is a rich, well-fed, well-clothed, well-housed son-of-a-bith with a way around.” Character counts. And Christianity is a part of that problem too because the churches suck on the Government Cheese tit by taking tax money for “Faith-Based Initiatives.” Government tax money certainly hasn’t made them any less “sons-of-bitches.”

You don’t give people cars. You share the wealth of the richest nation to raise people with respect, give them hope and a path to success. Or we can treat the downtrodden like dirt, imprison so many of them. That will work. Just Brilliant!

[—Participant]

_Robert_ wrote:

You don’t give people cars. You share the wealth of the richest nation to raise people with respect, give them hope and a path to success. Or we can treat the downtrodden like dirt, imprison so many of them. That will work. Just Brilliant!

Our current era of capitalism does have quite the surreal feel to it. There is plenty of work that needs to be done, yet is neglected because there isn’t enough money or resources, supposedly, but we’re very keen on creating work that doesn’t need to be done or even ought not to be done because it can be more readily converted to financial gain. We’ve lost any means of allocating work efforts towards things that actually make people healthier and happier beyond shop therapy and the thrill of the latest gadget.

I’m not anti-materialist, but when you end up in a situation where selling fast fashion has a higher priority than so many unmet fundamental needs, something’s gone horribly wrong.

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