Things we are uncomfortable talking about can be things we need to talk about

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This topic contains 78 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Autumn 1 week, 5 days ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 79 total)
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  • #43916

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I think it’s such a non-issue as far as interacting with other adults…be true to yourself and I respect that. I am not as sure about minors receiving drugs or elective surgery without having mental health professionals involved.

    As my Jewish childhood neighbor lady might have said, “And parents? What are they? Chopped liver?” Nowadays, when it comes to some important life-altering changes, the parents are lucky to even get input, much less giving permission.

    I pretty much lived a secret life when I was a kid and as long as the police didn’t show up to our house, the parents were fine with that. When I graduated college, my father asked “what degree did you get?” I said “electrical engineering” and he said, “oh that’s good”, LOL.

    #43917

    Autumn
    Participant

    I agree as far as ’18 Y/O’ age of consent is concerned, the range of development is as wide as the Mississippi, but I guess you have to draw that legal line somewhere. I am sure the trans-haters play up all sorts of bullshit horror stories about minors being “influenced” by people with pro-trans agendas; I have seen several click-bait articles, but I didn’t go there.

    I’d break it into roughly three camps that create the most confusion right now:

    i) Active lobby/ activist groups spreading misinformation. Problematically, they also seed in legitimate concerns with manufactured bullshit, so it makes the conversation very difficult. For example, yes, detransition narratives are real, they are important, and they do matter both for individual patient care and overall risk and harm reduction. But no, this isn’t evidence of some brutal epidemic of medical experiments gone wild in some trans craze.

    ii) Opportunists who want to leverage a wedge issue or who are hung up on the social drama. Many politicians fit into this camp. Jordan Peterson fits into this camp. DeSantis. JK Rowling.

    iii) The average person speaking from either their limited knowledge or what seems like common sense to them. The problem with the latter is that common sense often doesn’t apply well to situations that are uncommon. Hell, it’s questionable if it even works that well on situations that are common. I wouldn’t have an issue with this group if it didn’t unintentionally swallow up so much space in the conversation. It increases the noise in the noise to signal ratio a lot.

    Are there counterparts to this in favour of trans rights? Yes. But I’d wager they are doing far less harm by virtue of developing medical knowledge not favouring social conservatism here.

    #43918

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers,

    Things we are uncomfortable talking about can be things we need to talk about

    As long as no one is either extrajudicially or judicially fined, jailed, beaten, tortured or murdered over either being Trans or accidentally misgendering an infant you see in the grocery store, we’re off to a good start. 😁

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Wrong tag
    #43920

    Unseen
    Participant

    Giving parents absolute dominion would enable abusive scenarios.

    The last time I looked, child abuse was against the law almost everywhere.

    #43921

    Unseen
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers, Things we are uncomfortable talking about can be things we need to talk about As long as no one is either extrajudicially or judicially fined, jailed, beaten, tortured or murdered (blah blah).

    I think we can add triggered. Comedians are being denied a living over fears that their jokes might make someone uncomfortable or trigger their PTSD over a misused pronoun or some ignorant statement about some admittedly complex gender issue.

    I’m trying to imagine Anthony Jeselnik, who is hilarious, being reduced to telling “safe” knock-knock jokes or silly puns.

    #43922

    Autumn
    Participant

    Giving parents absolute dominion would enable abusive scenarios.

    The last time I looked, child abuse was against the law almost everywhere.

    Equivocal. The law doesn’t cover all things that are abusive nor can it. Denying medical care is abusive, but cases have to be weighed on their individual merits. There are relatively few cases where trans children and youth are concerned so jurisprudence is still being determined. It will probably continue to evolve for a long time especially given how politicized this area of medicine has become.

    #43923

    Autumn
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers, Things we are uncomfortable talking about can be things we need to talk about As long as no one is either extrajudicially or judicially fined, jailed, beaten, tortured or murdered (blah blah).

    I think we can add triggered. Comedians are being denied a living over fears that their jokes might make someone uncomfortable or trigger their PTSD over a misused pronoun or some ignorant statement about some admittedly complex gender issue. I’m trying to imagine Anthony Jeselnik, who is hilarious, being reduced to telling “safe” knock-knock jokes or silly puns.

    Are they? Comedians like Chappelle and Gervais seem to leverage the idea of getting cancelled into better publicity. I mentioned Peterson earlier (not a comedian, I know) because he seems to have recently taken to intentionally trying to get cancelled just to restore some of his hype. Some comedians and celebrities fare better than others on this front, but being a successful comedian has always been subject to the whims of public perception and acceptance beyond just jokes. The reality is, comedians who have that clout can say just about whatever the fuck they want, and if it makes people angry, they can turn around and sell the drama for more press. It’s a roll of the dice, sure, but it’s not a magical career ender. Newer comedians are always going to struggle to position themselves because it’s a mean industry that’s going to strip you down to your marketability coupled with how much of a liability you are perceived to be, not whether you’re socially conscious or not.

    #43924

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers,

    While I do go along with the essentialist definition of Male and Female shared by Unseen and Belle for the majority of humans, and I also share Belle’s definition of Trans, I also agree with one of the discussions on the subject on Matt Dillahunty’s channel.

    I can’t find it but to give a thumbnail summary, there are Intersex/Hermaphrodite people with gonads and genes of both sexes (numbered as many as redheads worldwide) who need acknowledgement, as well as people with XXY or XYY chromosomes or chromosomes for one sex which don’t show in phenotypes due to how receptors work, and all sorts of combinations of genotype and phenotype.

    And at the pace that CRISPR and organ transplantation are advancing, one can “never say never” about these things.

    While it’s all interesting scientific and medical phenomena, from a political and legal standpoint it shouldn’t matter what a person’s sex, sexual orientation, and gender identity are if Government acknowledges that all have equal individual rights and the equal obligation to respect the same-held rights of all others.

    Also, I was a little kid when the Unisex Movement in fashion and hairstyles was becoming popular and Jackleg radio preachers were apoplectic about it. The Jackleg preachers have long since gone on to rail on other sins galore, if not caught in their owmn sinful scandals.

    And 32 years ago, I encountered my first single-stall Unisex toilet in a small country town convenience store, along with many others in other establishments since. The world didn’t end then, and as long as people have privacy and everything comes out all right, so to speak, it won’t end now.
    😁

    #43925

    Autumn
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers, Things we are uncomfortable talking about can be things we need to talk about As long as no one is either extrajudicially or judicially fined, jailed, beaten, tortured or murdered over either being Trans or accidentally misgendering an infant you see in the grocery store, we’re off to a good start. 😁

    I don’t know about that. Remove trans people from the equation and the discussion on what defines a ‘man’ or a ‘woman’ has still historically been pretty fucked up. In Canada, women weren’t properly legally acknowledged as persons until 1929. If woman was defined in such a way that it could have excluded legal personhood, it would seem we’d done fucked up.

    We’ve had all sorts of issues since in the ways we define men and women then back it up with a mix of science, pseudoscience, and cultural norms to make a much larger divide between sexes and genders than there really needs to be. And with this comes strange double standards some of which exist to this day, in some cases in ways that are harmful to everyone.

    #43926

    Unseen
    Participant

    Are they? Comedians like Chappelle and Gervais seem to leverage the idea of getting cancelled into better publicity.

    I think you’re right to the extent that the top comics are not likely to be put out of business entirely though I think they may still take an unnecessary and undeserved hit. On the other hand, some media owned by major corporations (Disney comes to mind) tend to be pushovers when the mob of wokes arrive at their gates with their tiki torches and pitchforks.

    More vulnerable, I suppose, than the top comics are those breaking into the trade or up and coming by comedy clubs wanting to avoid difficult publicity simply not signing them up for gigs.

    #43927

    Unseen
    Participant

    And yet, rising above all the gender wars political mumbo jumbo we have the simple fact that biology knows what a male and female is in a very binary way, noting that very occasionally there are sometimes hard cases. In general and in the vast majority of cases, the two genders have different plumbing.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by  Unseen.
    #43929

    _Robert_
    Participant

    ..and here we go..tRump trashing trans to his intelligential followers…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UswBa_0dvI

    #43930

    Autumn
    Participant

    Are they? Comedians like Chappelle and Gervais seem to leverage the idea of getting cancelled into better publicity.

    I think you’re right to the extent that the top comics are not likely to be put out of business entirely though I think they may still take an unnecessary and undeserved hit.

    What hit are Chappelle and Gervais taking? They are both getting paid out the nose to say this shit, they are getting tons of media leverage out of it, and they are getting more contracts for absurd sums to make more of it. Even David Spade tried to cash in on the trend of getting cancelled for trans jokes but he was too tepid and too David Spade so it flew under the radar. Played right, it’s a cash cow. ‘PC run amok’ is a decades old marketing gimmick.

    On the other hand, some media owned by major corporations (Disney comes to mind) tend to be pushovers when the mob of wokes arrive at their gates with their tiki torches and pitchforks.

    Disney plays to the money as well. It’s only very recently they’ve let queer characters into some of their shows (though some of those are actually acquisitions rather than Disney productions). It largely won’t show up in their A-list stuff like Pixar productions because they don’t want to deal with the content being protested or outright banned in certain countries. The only reason Lightyear got to keep the tiniest shred of content showing a lesbian couple was due to getting called out for hypocrisy during the kerfuffle over Florida’s Don’t Say Gay bill.

    More vulnerable, I suppose, than the top comics are those breaking into the trade or up and coming by comedy clubs wanting to avoid difficult publicity simply not signing them up for gigs.

    Yet they still have a leg up on trans comedians for the most part though few new comedians, period, have that much of a chance (and the number of new comedians who are trans is much smaller than the number who are not). If we’re going to talk about the crippling unfairness of the industry, sure, it’s fucked up. It’s not a fair industry. It’s just, if we’re gonna stop and start at how comedy punching down is a career risk (not even because it’s potentially contributing to marginalization, but rather because it might not be as marketable—that’s the reality), then I’m gonna have to laugh. The risk of career suicide for doing the wrong shit (or even just being the wrong type of person) has always been part of the game.

    #43931

    Autumn
    Participant

    And yet, rising above all the gender wars political mumbo jumbo we have the simple fact that biology knows what a male and female is in a very binary way, noting that very occasionally there are sometimes hard cases. In general and in the vast majority of cases, the two genders have different plumbing.

    In terms of biology, the only thing that matters is viable reproduction, not male and female. Male and female are useful classifications, especially in humans, but nature is pretty indifferent to a hard binary. There are experiments to create sperm cells from cisgender female donors and nature literally doesn’t give a shit that it’s female sperm or that it’s human engineered sperm. Nature doesn’t know what a male and female are. Those are human classifications. In nature, reproduction is just necessary for propagation and however it gets done, cool.

    #43932

    Unseen
    Participant

    And yet, rising above all the gender wars political mumbo jumbo we have the simple fact that biology knows what a male and female is in a very binary way, noting that very occasionally there are sometimes hard cases. In general and in the vast majority of cases, the two genders have different plumbing.

    In terms of biology, the only thing that matters is viable reproduction, not male and female. Male and female are useful classifications, especially in humans, but nature is pretty indifferent to a hard binary. There are experiments to create sperm cells from cisgender female donors and nature literally doesn’t give a shit that it’s female sperm or that it’s human engineered sperm. Nature doesn’t know what a male and female are. Those are human classifications. In nature, reproduction is just necessary for propagation and however it gets done, cool.

    You’re talking about situations where humans are messing with nature. Take the interference away (as in all the other mammals when they go about reproducing) and it’s pretty binary. Like 100%.

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