Things we are uncomfortable talking about can be things we need to talk about

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This topic contains 78 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Autumn 1 week, 2 days ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 79 total)
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  • #43980

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    His Majesty is fit for purpose as a pronoun.

    I mean psychologically, not physically, trans people identify as members of the opposite sex.  That’s right, isn’t it?  I’m just asking questions.  I’m here to learn.

    #43981

    Autumn
    Participant

    Majesty takes me to august. Such a nice and underused word. Even you Autumn are not wont to use august.

    I am loath to be august as well. Some of my 90s punk sensibilities never really left me.

    It occurs to me I’ve taken my name from the time of year where the months are named after neither gods or Caesars, but rather the displaced numbers. Accidental, yet fitting.

    #43982

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Autumn i may have indicated already that you would make a heck of an attorney.

    Perfect analytical mind for law.

    #43983

    Autumn
    Participant

    His Majesty is fit for purpose as a pronoun.

    I’ve already gone over why it isn’t—points you’ve not addressed—And I could keep going. Are you really sure you want to get into this with me? Simply misunderstanding basic grammar is not going to be accepted as a reasonable argument,

    I mean psychologically, not physically, trans people identify as members of the opposite sex. That’s right, isn’t it? I’m just asking questions. I’m here to learn.

    We experience an incongruity between something in our mind/ brain, and the sexual characteristics of our bodies. Furthermore, we face a complicated problem on how best to reconcile mind/ body/ and social existence while dealing with the limitations of medicine, of language, of social infrastructure and institutions in this pursuit. All while facing considerable hostility, disbelief, and isolation. How people characterize that incongruence, how they experience it, how they address or resolve it varies.

    N.B. Trans is also used as an umbrella term. It likely includes at this point people who are not transgender or transsexual in the sense I am (the aforementioned incongruence), but rather they reject socially constructed gender norms. Confusing though it may be, the language is still evolving. What I have offered is a more conventional definition.,

    #43984

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Prince Charles is referred to as His Majesty, instead of “he”, which is a pronoun.

    We all know that Unseen was trying to wind you up, and play silly arses.  But I’m not.

    #43985

    Autumn
    Participant

    Prince Charles is referred to as His Majesty, instead of “he”, which is a pronoun. We all know that Unseen was trying to wind you up, and play silly arses. But I’m not.

    We could also refer to Charles as the heir apparent, the Prince of Wales, the Duke of Cornwall, or Charlie-charlie-bo-barlie-banana-fana-fo-farlie-fee-fi-mo-marlie—Charlie. None of those would become pronouns. People can be referred to by more than one name, title, or term. But doing so doesn’t convert a noun to a pronoun. The difference is that a noun refers to a specific concept while a pronoun merely substitutes for one. ‘He’ grammatically holds the place of a noun in a sentence without actually functioning as a noun independent of that sentence. It’s always a referent rather than an object in and of itself. Duke of Cornwall, while also a term we could use for Charles, functions as a noun when used that way, and also as a noun outside of that context because it is a noun. The same applies to ‘majesty’.

    Imagine you are in school. The teacher puts up a paragraph:

    Lucy is my only student. My student is a joy to teach. She listens well, follows instructions, and asks good questions. It is a pleasure having her in class.

    You are asked to circle the pronouns in the paragraph. Would you circle ‘my student’? It’s been used in place of Lucy or she (both of which would have fit and referred to the same person), so why not, right?

    #43986

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    The same applies to ‘majesty’.

    I think that “majesty” is not a noun*, it’s an adjective, or state of being, as in, his majestic self.  If His Majesty is a pronoun, it is to substitute for the concept of Prince Charles, which it does.  It’s also his title and form of address.

    These make it similar to the pronouns trans people would like to use, in my opinion.  Prince Charles is canonically referred to as His Majesty instead of he.  Prince Charles is majestic because he’s a member of the royal family.  A trans woman is a she because she idenfies as female.  She wishes to be referred to that way.

    I would say that “my student” is both a noun phrase and a pronoun, in this sentence.  However, Lucy would not refer to herself as “my student”.  It would not be her “personal pronoun”.

    She would not call herself “student Lucy”.  But an FBI agent called Mulder would probably refer to himself as Agent Mulder, and that would be a portable pronoun that could be used in any context.

     

    * I’m wrong – majesty is a noun, somebody can be a majesty.  But that doesn’t mean that a pronoun can’t have a noun in it.

    #43987

    @simon Prince Charles is referred to as His Majesty.

    He has been waiting 73 years for someone to call him that 🙂

    I wonder is anybody really likes indefinite pronouns?

    #43988

    Autumn
    Participant

    I’m wrong – majesty is a noun, somebody can be a majesty. But that doesn’t mean that a pronoun can’t have a noun in it.

    It’s not about whether there is a noun in it. It’s about whether it functions grammatically as a noun or a pronoun. ‘Your Majesty’ functions as a noun.

    These make it similar to the pronouns trans people would like to use, in my opinion.  Prince Charles is canonically referred to as His Majesty instead of he.

    It wouldn’t. ‘Your Majesty” is a title denoting nobility. Specifically, it is reserved for the reigning monarch as Reg has implied (so not Charles, who I believe you’d address as ‘Your Royal Highness’ should the occasion arise). Trans people aren’t trying to bestow titles upon ourselves in using pronouns that fit our gender identity and expression. Drag queens on the other hand… (that’s a joke; still no).

    The two general criteria trans people have of pronouns are that a) they address the issue with gender, and b) they function linguistically as pronouns. As a third but possibly less consistent criterion, we tend to choose pronouns people in our lives are more likely to adopt, thus he/she/they being far and away the prevalent options.

    I would say that “my student” is both a noun phrase and a pronoun, in this sentence.  However, Lucy would not refer to herself as “my student”.  It would not be her “personal pronoun”.

    You would be marked incorrect. Also, when we’re talking about a person’s personal pronouns in this context (I don’t know why you added scare quotes around that), we’re talking about third-person pronouns. First and second person pronouns are gender-neutral in English (though not in all languages, e.g. Japanese). People don’t typically refer to themselves using third-person pronouns. It’s not ungrammatical; there is rarely cause to do so.

    #43989

    Autumn
    Participant

    I wonder is anybody really likes indefinite pronouns?

    Would anyone exist without them?

    #43990

    jakelafort
    Participant

    I wait patiently for somebody, anybody, to concede/admit…you are correct…i was mistaken…

    Am i just waiting for Godot?

    #43994

    Autumn
    Participant

    Grammar is an emotional journey. Personally, an adverb or two has taken me down a peg.

    #43995

    Unseen
    Participant

    ‘Microwave’ in ‘microwave oven’ is actually a noun (‘microwave oven’ is a compound noun). Verbing nouns is a common practice in English. Wholesale, random substitutions of words is not.

    Part of the flexibility of language is that two people can analyze an expression two different ways with no way for one person to prove definitively that the other person is wrong. Thanks for the example. I’m sure I can come up with an example of a verb becoming a noun by being used as a noun. It’s not like you have a list of nouns, pronouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, and the words on the list are always and ever in that category.

    Language is flexible. What something is depends on how you use it. It’s a simple point and I don’t think it can be refuted.

    #43997

    @autumnWould anyone exist without them?

    I reckon somebody must know but not me I.

    #43998

    Autumn
    Participant

    Part of the flexibility of language is that two people can analyze an expression two different ways with no way for one person to prove definitively that the other person is wrong. Thanks for the example. I’m sure I can come up with an example of a verb becoming a noun by being used as a noun. It’s not like you have a list of nouns, pronouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, and the words on the list are always and ever in that category. Language is flexible. What something is depends on how you use it. It’s a simple point and I don’t think it can be refuted.

    No one was ever refuting flexibility in language. But that flexibility doesn’t support an ‘anything goes’ approach to syntax and semantics. Language has flexibility, but without a hefty amount of structure and order, it’s not very useful.

    And yes, verbs frequently become nouns (e.g. ossify/ ossification). Nouns can be formed as adjectives or adverbs (e.g. sheep/ sheepish/ sheepishly).

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