Third Wave Feminism In Atheism

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This topic contains 28 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Unseen 4 days, 11 hours ago.

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  • #32579

    Anonymous

    Some people have suggested that third wave feminism could qualify as a religion under some anthropologists’ definitions. However, regardless of this, the people who identify as feminists are bound to believe in some type of bullshit as the whole concept of being a feminist relies heavily upon the concepts of victim complexes and self-guilt.

    https://dplore.fandom.com/wiki/Third-Wave_Feminism

    #32586

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I count myself as a feminist, apparently this isn’t allowed by some activists, but I don’t care.  For me it’s about empowering women and liberating men, rather than victimhood and self-hate.

    #32607

    Ivy
    Participant

    Feminism as a “religion?” That makes no sense

    #32630

    Unseen
    Participant

    Feminism as a “religion?” That makes no sense

    I’m not arguing with you. I just wonder how you’re using your terms here. What is it about religion that feminism (or some KIND of feminism) fails to meet? “Religion” is a pretty loose term encompassing religions that recognize a higher being or beings (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Zoroastrianism,. Hinduism, for example), and at least one that does not, Buddhism.

    #32631

    Unseen
    Participant

    The waves of feminism are described here.

    #32632

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Some people have suggested that third wave feminism could qualify as a religion under some anthropologists’ definitions.

    I dunno, “some people”, like who, and why should we care? I’m writing something up about the differences between religions and cults because I’ve heard some people say there are no differences, but… it hit me recently that going into more detail on those differences should be instructional not just to those atheists but to religionists as well. Those similarities between religions and cults will remain, and I’m not denying that.

    Anyway I googled “first second third fourth wave feminism spreadsheet OR pdf OR powerpoint” and couldn’t find much of any useful summary about what the history or differences are. “Post-modernist” came up a lot in third wave topics which makes me think maybe @davis would have a strong opinion. 🙂 And #MeToo triggers, er, I mean activates some people. I think I appreciate Silverman more than I did before he got humbled or shocked by the abuse that (I think) was truly unfair.

    HashTags #TWF #GodlessGirlSaysGodlessGirlOwnedSilverman ?

    #32633

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    The waves of feminism are described here.

    Aha, I should have hit refresh before posting that last response.

    #32640

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Why are you comparing 3rd-wave feminism to a religion?  It sounds like a cheap put-down – “they blindly believe in bullshit”.

    #32642

    Davis
    Participant

    When Americans stood up to British oppression, it was valiant. It was the founding of a nation.

    When the working class stood up for their rights in the early 20th century it was people taking control of their own destiny

    When women fight for fewer barriers in the work place and less domestic violence and rape…they are pathetic beings with a victim complex.

    It seems women cannot win. Anonymous…you basically explain whats wrong with the double standards women face all the time and why women shouldn’t be put off by people like you who try to demean their struggle, dismiss their valid claims and try to do what people have done towards women for centuries, make their little issues seems like non-problems and the hysterical over-emotional irrational dramas that women always do. I don’t think people like you are going to stop women this time. Their claims are completely valid and backed up by all the research you could ever ask. Their struggle is as admirable as that of any group of oppressed people who fought for their rights before. But nice try.

    #32643

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    @davis – that sounds like about the size of it.  The backlash is real.  Why stop, just because there is a backlash?

    https://dplore.fandom.com/wiki/Third-Wave_Feminism

    This sounds like a bunch of hysterical nonsense.  Yes, there have been abuses and excesses.  That’s to be expected in any liberation struggle.  Some people do have too much time on their hands, and selfish malicious motives.  That’s people in general for you (i.e., men and women).

    @anonymous – I’m asking, do you hate women?

    #32644

    Unseen
    Participant

    Yes, women as a class make less than men.  Estimates vary. There are good reasons why, almost all of them having to do with life choices they make regarding which careers to go into and how committed they are to their jobs vs. personal and home life matters (dropping out to take care of a sickly parent or child, for example). Men are more likely to jump at a chance for a promotion that takes them away from their hometown and close relatives. So the kind of choices men are making also figure into the differential.

    Women often assume—and want to assume—a greater share of the responsibility for their children. Some of this may be a male partner’s distaste for having a large role in the nurturing part of parenting, exchanging concentrating on their career to be a maximum breadearner as their contribution, but a lot of it certainly has to do with the female’s mothering instinct, which in many species is 100% the female’s role.

    Women are more social than men, valuing their relationships with coworkers more than men. So a woman is less likely to seek and more likely to turn down a pay-enhancing promotion if it means leaving their office friends and especially if it involves relocation.

    In light of the above, I think “Equal pay for equal work” is a nonsensical standard, especially for a business.

    Indeed, most of the statistical gender pay differential is due to choices women make which make them less valuable employees, as a gender, than men.

    Here’s the real reason for the pay gap (much of it, anyway): Companies pay their workers based on THEIR VALUE TO THE COMPANY, not their gender. Anything else is a stupid way to run a business.

    • This reply was modified 5 days, 19 hours ago by  Unseen.
    • This reply was modified 5 days, 19 hours ago by  Unseen.
    #32647

    Davis
    Participant

    Unseen…those aren’t good reasons those are excuses, stereotypes and falsehoods. People who benefit from unfair double standards are always making excuses to justify why others get fewer opportunities than they do. They do it when black people have a hard time getting work and they do it per women all the time. There are documented cases of workers past birth giving age doing equal or better work and making less. It’s time to stop justifying the unjustifiable.

    • This reply was modified 5 days, 17 hours ago by  Davis.
    #32649

    Unseen
    Participant

    Unseen…those aren’t good reasons those are excuses, stereotypes and falsehoods. People who benefit from unfair double standards are always making excuses to justify why others get fewer opportunities than they do. They do it when black people have a hard time getting work and they do it per women all the time. There are documented cases of workers past birth giving age doing equal or better work and making less. It’s time to stop justifying the unjustifiable.

    So here’s your analysis: 1) I’m flabbergasted that again you hit me with an ad hominem accusation and without even one example that’s clearly and obviously an excuse, stereotype, or falsehood. Let me note that both excuses and sterotypes can be true (Maybe my dog did eat my homework!). If I stated any specific flasehoods, offer proof that I’m wrong. Otherwise, it would appear to be you who’s offering nothing more than a politically popular view. 2) I never said there was NO DISCRIMINATION. Where TF did you ever get that idea from? Although, let’s also admit that discrimination (being discriminating) can often be justified.

    Let’s look at a number of my assertions, giving you a chance to provide contrary facts.

    I stated that women often choose careers in lower-paid fields like teaching, social work, nursing (vs. becoming a doctor). False?

    I stated that women often prefer to be the primary caregiver parent. Is this false?

    I stated that women often hesitate to apply for or accept jobs involving relocation. Is this false, too?

    I stated that pay is (and I will add, should be) generally based on value to the company. Why would equal pay for equal work be better?

    Now, I’ve already admitted that women do earn less. And I mean even women apparently in or applying for the same job. And there are some things we can fix to give them a better chance.

    For years as a photographer I worked exclusively with young women about at that age when they are entering the normal (non-modeling) workforcce. When I heard something like “I’ve applied for a job” or “I have a job interview coming up,” I would often stop what I was doing and say “Shake my hand” and I’d be confronted with a limp fish posing as a hand. So, I’d teach them how to give a firm, aggressive handshake. Even female bosses like that and take it as a sign of eagerness to do a good job.

    Then I’d teach them some of the basics of negotiating. Like, don’t make your fallback position your first salary request.. I’d tell them that you are unlikely to win any negotiation you’re unwilling to walk away from. And finally, don’t go in to an interview giving off an air of desperation: If you say, “I really need this job,” that’s an invitation to get a really low salary offer while giving off the impression that you’re not convinced you’re even qualified.

    So, one handicap many girls have is nobody telling them what will get them the best pay, how to behave in an interview, and how to negotiate.

    And, of course, getting our daughters interested in and able to talk intelligently about popular team sports early on is a great way to help them succeed at work. A female can move in male circles, but not if her conversation is all about kids and kitty cats. Can she go out with a couple male coworkers and cheer on the hometown team with them? Can she state that if only Smith had pitched as well as he did last week, they mighta won?

    Girls in single-parent situations suffer by not having dads to pass along a lot of this how-to-succeed lore, because it’s usually dads who can pass along this sort of intel best.

    • This reply was modified 5 days, 15 hours ago by  Unseen.
    #32651

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    So what company will ever pay women to raise children?

    Even when raising kids is purported to be a choice, things can happen later that leave mothers stranded, so should they also be expected, with no backup from a workplace, to take the risk of having to raise kids after unforeseen circumstances?

    It is society’s responsibility to make child rearing a safe risk for women, just as (imo) it’s society’s responsibility to provide for health care availability (to everyone) without expecting employers to have to pay for the brunt of it.

    Historically and currently, in America, women just do not have the same “choices” that men do, not even the choices we as a society need them to have.

    #32652

    Davis
    Participant

    Unseen you look at things through the eyes of someone trying to justify something unfair instead of seeing obvious valid solutions. Perhaps do as they do in Scandanavia and give equal paterinity and maternity leave? Or should it be both expected for the mother to take care of the child AND to penalise her with her salary AND her slowing career?

    You also seem to think that because some women are compelled to stop their career and take time off for the labour and early caring for their children that it is reasonable that an ENTIRE GENDER should pay for that. This is called discrimination. It wouldn’t make sense to have a policy to not hire people who grew up in a city in which hired employees are more likely to leave early and change jobs or be imprisoned with higher frequency and therefore penalize ALL people who grew up in that city because of this. And yet it seems entirely reasonable to penalize all women, including those who are passed child bearing age.

    No it doesn’t make sense to penalize an entire group because of the potential short term problems that can come from some members of that group nor to incentivise men to take their fare share of the burden for raising children. Jcust let things stay the way they are, make all women pay, carry the burden and justify substantially lower salaries.

    And even IF it were a valid excuse that companies worried about a short term loss over potential materinity leave was acceptable to justify lower women’s pay, it doesn’t cover the enormous gap in salary. I mean come on. One or two years off in maternity leave doesn’t justify a 25% to 30% salary difference over the course of an entire career. Even the math doesn’t add up.

    It’s just discrimination, arbitrarily lower salaries and subconscious bias. Women are worth less and should be paid less, even when they are worth more.

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