Trans women in sports. What's fair?

[UnseenParticipant]

Before I begin, I recognize that Trump and MAGA come at this issue from a either a hate- or religion-based angle. Let’s set that aside and realize that it’s a real issue that would eventually come up without them.

How seriously to take gender identity is becoming impossible to sidestep in the world of sports. BTW, to make things clear, I will use the word “belief” in place of “identity.”

Questions:

Does believing you are a female despite your male biological gender make you a female? In other words, does a belief turn a fiction into a fact?

Since biological gender is possible to determine genetically by looking at the DNA, why not use that to determine if a person’s statement of gender belief is true or false?

Would it be a fair solution for there to be a separate set of competitions for trans athletes?

BTW, if trans people are clamoring to be accepted according to their gender belief, where are the trans men clamoring to be accepted in men’s sports? The answer is painfully obvious: they wouldn’t be competitive, so the trans women competitors are essentially taking advantage of the biological inheritance: a male’s body.

Why do I care? Is it because I hate trans people? No, it’s because I have a daughter who was a competitive swimmer who worked her hiney off in order to win. She won enough that she got a full scholarship to UNLV, essentially putting herself through college. This opportunity might well have been denied her had she been forced to compete against biological males.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

We’re all sympathetic with trans people, but it’s a difficult dilemma to resolve satisfactorily.  In the UK it’s just been decided legally that for some purposes, such as women’s safe spaces, a person’s biological sex is what matters and not their social and psychological gender.  So, in effect, we’ve decided that for some purposes, you can’t change sex.

As @robert once pointed out, to exclude trans women from biological-women-only spaces is the same as saying they’re “not real women”.  The problem with self-identification is that biological men took great advantage to abuse the system.

Frankly, it would end a lof of trouble and hostility if trans people could have their own category in sports.  I don’t see what’s unfair about that.  People don’t like biological women being elbowed out of their rightful winnings, unfairly, basically by men.

[_Robert_Participant]

I remember when Lance Armstrong was dominating bike racing, our CEO came out wearing a little bike racing outfit and gave a video speech to his thousands of employees about being a winner like him.

Two weeks later Armstrong was found to be cheating with steroids.

Frankly, fuck the trajectory of sports. The commercialization, and the “win at any cost” and constant effort at cheating. That IS the culture. I can’t even be bothered with it anymore. What is the Olympics but a bunch of nationalistic bullshit. And really, three months later, how many of us even remember or care about what happened? If your life is so pathetic that your happiness is pinned to your football team winning, just fuck off. And fuck all those athletes who attribute their good fortune to god. Nine million children die before the age of 5 every year, because well god is busy nudging a baseball two inches to the left. Self-important morons. And well let’s face it. The majority of sports fans couldn’t even jog around the block without passing out.

I guess sports can never become fun again.

[UnseenParticipant]

_Robert_ wrote:

Frankly, fuck the trajectory of sports. The commercialization, and the “win at any cost” and constant effort at cheating.

Right now, the main controversy isn’t at the pro level. It’s at the high school and college level.

My daughter didn’t want to go pro (as a swimmer? pretty much not a “thing”). She just wanted a scholarship and that’s why many high school athletes compete, because getting one can pay the bulk of the cost of a college education.

 

[_Robert_Participant]

Unseen wrote:

_Robert_ wrote:

Frankly, fuck the trajectory of sports. The commercialization, and the “win at any cost” and constant effort at cheating.

Right now, the main controversy isn’t at the pro level. It’s at the high school and college level. My daughter didn’t want to go pro (as a swimmer? pretty much not a “thing”). She just wanted a scholarship and that’s why many high school athletes compete, because getting one can pay the bulk of the cost of a college education.

Never understood the connection between sports and “scholar”-ships”.  You are great at tennis, so we’ll pay for your chemistry degree. Some kid, good at chemistry gets denied. That case would be a rare exception however, because we know how Universities rig up all sorts of easy majors to keep athletes on their semi-pro teams. The University systems should drop all that sports crap down a few notches and start challenging students to actually learn how to think.  Just another symptom of privatization of our society. Schools have to make money from sports, it’s pathetic. Meanwhile the Chinese and Indian schools are academically blowing by US schools churning out a capable high-tech, medical, industrial workforce.

[UnseenParticipant]

When someone expresses the belief that they are not the gender biology gave them, like most beliefs, it is either true or false is it not? Maybe the best approach is to offer these folks therapy.  How far do we give in to this “I identify as” phenomenon. For example, do you remember Rachel Dolezal, the white woman who identified as black to such a degree that she even became an NAACP chapter head? Her black associates, once they found out, felt betrayed and didn’t accept her explanations. And rightly so!

Now, I will grant that the person in question in the top post’s video behaves in an effeminate manner and speaks in an effeminate manner, but these are behaviors and behaviors can be learned and exaggerated, he is showing every sign of exaggerating effeminate behaviors. He’s acting so effeminate it’s almost a parody.

Aside: I once knew a psychotherapist whose specialty was working with men transiting to womanhood learn to walk, talk, and in general behave like the female gender.

One female swimmer’s mother said in an interview that allowing him to compete as a girl was just one more way the system oppresses women.

 

• This reply was modified 7 months, 3 weeks ago by  Unseen.

[UnseenParticipant]

_Robert_ wrote:

Never understood the connection between sports and “scholar”-ships”.  You are great at tennis, so we’ll pay for your chemistry degree. Some kid, good at chemistry gets denied.

I will have to assume that the one-two puncher gets taken on because of their added value. Rightly or wrongly, success in sports is good for the revenue a learning/research institution receives, especially from rich alumni. That’s just a fact of life.

But, while we’re questioning shit, perhaps society and especially the business world places too much emphasis on academic accomplishment as expressed by “getting a degree.”

Anyway, if you’re kid who’s “good at chemistry” wants to get into a good school, why not spend less time hanging out with ne’erdowell buddies and take up swimming, basketball, or some track and field event. Why shouldn’t the kid who tries a little harder and brings in $ get some extra attention?

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

When someone expresses the belief that they are not the gender biology gave them, like most beliefs, it is either true or false is it not?

It’s not as simple as that.  Sex is biological but gender is psychological and social.  So someone can be born male and have a female psychological and social identity.

[UnseenParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Unseen wrote:

When someone expresses the belief that they are not the gender biology gave them, like most beliefs, it is either true or false is it not?

It’s not as simple as that. Sex is biological but gender is psychological and social. So someone can be born male and have a female psychological and social identity.

What about the white woman who claims to identify as black? A person can claim to identify as black and live as a black person and also be eligible for some of the benefits available to racial minorities, if we accept that sort of thing. Fair?

The fact remains that if you have an X chromosome, testicles, and a penis, you are a male no matter how you identify and if being male bothers you, it’s time to get into counseling or just live out your fantasy quietly without trying to parlay it into an advantage.

I think you are the one oversimplifying, because unsaid on your part is that we should just accept that split, but to do so is unjust to the biological females, because it’s not just sports. Men have a wide variety of advantages over women as it is without adding men who believe they are women into the mix.

• This reply was modified 7 months, 3 weeks ago by  Unseen.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

I think you are the one oversimplifying, because unsaid on your part is that we should just accept that split, but to do so is unjust to the biological females, because it’s not just sports.

I agree with you:

Simon Paynton wrote:

Frankly, it would end a lof of trouble and hostility if trans people could have their own category in sports.  I don’t see what’s unfair about that.  People don’t like biological women being elbowed out of their rightful winnings, unfairly, basically by men.

Can Rachel Dolezal identify as black?  She can do whatever she likes.  The questions are, is it legitimate, can she claim benefits meant only for racial minorities, and would other people accept her?

I think legitimacy is a personal thing.  Something’s legitimate to me if I think it is.  Would other people accept her identifying as black?  Probably, never in a million years.  It’s akin to Jeff Bazos identifying as a poor person.  But I’m not black, so I couldn’t tell you the full ramifications.

Could she claim black people’s benefits?  That would not be fair.  She would essentially be getting two bites of the cake – white people’s and black people’s benefits.

 

[_Robert_Participant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Unseen wrote:

I think you are the one oversimplifying, because unsaid on your part is that we should just accept that split, but to do so is unjust to the biological females, because it’s not just sports.

I agree with you:

Simon Paynton wrote:

Frankly, it would end a lof of trouble and hostility if trans people could have their own category in sports. I don’t see what’s unfair about that. People don’t like biological women being elbowed out of their rightful winnings, unfairly, basically by men.

Can Rachel Dolezal identify as black? She can do whatever she likes. The questions are, is it legitimate, can she claim benefits meant only for racial minorities, and would other people accept her?

There is the rub. I am all for personal freedoms, but injustices against women, blacks, and every other non-white (in the US, at least) are real. The man to woman transexual people really represents a challenge to liberal thought. The special case of often apex white males who appear to be coopting recent measures to correct centuries of social injustice. I admire many trans women for their accomplishments. I just wish they could comprehend the special concerns and tread softly. Instead, some (and worse, who have put questionable effort into transitioning and appear pretty pervy to me) get all militant when people become concerned for woman’s rights. Not a fan of that. And all champions of liberal thinking and democracy are paying dearly for unconditional support.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen and Simon and Robert, et al,

A couple of observations and questions:

The whole Rachel Dolezal story would never have existed if no moral or social or even metaphysical significance were given to “race” or “color.”. If a benefit did not accrue to “race” or “color” why would someone want to assume it?

Also, the Rachel Dolezal story and the whole Transwomen phenomenon it seems to me upends the whole Woke/DEI/CRT worldview. After all. if women and people of certain physiotypes were not just historically, but today are intrinsically in all circumstances victims of systemic oppression, why do some people want to be members of those victim categories?

• This reply was modified 7 months, 3 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Too many 'M's in 'Metaphysical.'. Not mmm-mmm good
• This reply was modified 7 months, 3 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Expanding my address to everyone

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

After all. if women and people of certain physiotypes were not just historically, but today are intrinsically in all circumstances victims of systemic oppression, why do some people want to be members of those victim categories?

I imagine it’s irrelevant to a man who is born a woman psychologically.  Rachel Dolezal maybe just loves black people and black culture, and wants to be black.  There are some white people in this country who try and talk like a Jamaican, and people ridicule them for it.

_Robert_ wrote:

I admire many trans women for their accomplishments. I just wish they could comprehend the special concerns and tread softly. Instead, some (and worse, who have put questionable effort into transitioning and appear pretty pervy to me) get all militant when people become concerned for woman’s rights. Not a fan of that.

We want to be fair to everyone, but everyone can’t have what they want.  I think there’s a priority that should be given to not getting raped.  It’s not that trans women are more likely to rape women – it’s that men are more likely to rape women, and sometimes they pretend to be trans in order to do that.

I think overall it looks like a case of women’s rights getting trampled on by men, yet again.  But trans women get their rights trampled on too.  I see an uneasy dynamic between trans women and biological women.  They don’t always seem to get along.

[UnseenParticipant]

Just to be clear, I’m opposed to trans women having most (perhaps with a few exceptions) getting the same opportunities to an education, to jobs, and to housing, for example. There are cases, such as faciities designed to house and protect women who’ve experoienced abuse, where their very understandable concerns must be taken into account. And in sports. While one often hears “But they aren’t even 1% of those competing in women’s sports” as if the ethical issue is one of numbers. “It’s fair as long as there are no more than x% of them” is wrongheaded on its face. Wrong is wrong. Unfair is unfair.

As has been noted, no solution will make everyone happy. While it’s not a 100% happy solution, rather than forcing trans women out of sports competition entirely, why not create a category where they can compete against each other.

[UnseenParticipant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Unseen and Simon and Robert, et al, A couple of observations and questions: The whole Rachel Dolezal story would never have existed if no moral or social or even metaphysical significance were given to “race” or “color.”.

I think in the case of Ms. Dolezal, she likes black culture, sympathizing, epathizing, and admiring it. Her assumption of a leadership role in the NAACP along with changing her appearance was a game of pretend taken too far, not an attempt to qualify for benefits. As far as I know, she never even sought any sort of race-based benefit.

If a benefit did not accrue to “race” or “color” why would someone want to assume it? Also, the Rachel Dolezal story and the whole Transwomen phenomenon it seems to me upends the whole Woke/DEI/CRT worldview. After all. if women and people of certain physiotypes were not just historically, but today are intrinsically in all circumstances victims of systemic oppression, why do some people want to be members of those victim categories?

The human mind is a complex and mysterious thing, Enco. Why do some people confess to crimes they didn’t commit. Sometimes it’s due to pressure and manipulation by interrogating officers, but sometimes they just show up and confess.

[Author]

Posts