A Formal Mathematical Model of The Holy Trinity.

[_Robert_Participant]

King Iyk wrote:

Robert has failed to provide a counter-proof that could be attested and validated by AI, admitting the uniqueness of this proof. So I will go over to you, RTFF; If the Trinity does not exist – as you claim, rooted in Arianism and denying co-equal persons—then explain how a precise, formal model of it could be extracted from the immutable fabrics of reality: immaterial time and immaterial mathematics, converging at the crucifixion? and further explain why the foremost advancement of the human race in the current century – AI; validates the model with Q.E.D.

No, I am waiting for proof of a resurrected Jesus, a god, a holy spirit. Only then can even start investigating if they interact. So, it is you who failed Q.E.D. That’s why you are here, instead of a proper secular scientific institution. I suggest Liberty University if you want to formalize this, LOL. I hear they have an accredited Exercise Science program.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

I wonder what Arius who make of this version of Who by Fire (Leonard Cohen). I think Arius would be allergic to metaphysical inflation and ask Christians to stop smuggling mystery in where clarity will do. He would say that there is one ultimate source (God the Father). Creation runs largely on order, consequence, and necessity and there is no divine intervention lottery. Cohen did not solve death. He just inventories it. There is more honesty in a musician playing guitar with his eyes closed than there is in any creed. This song is honest. It does not lie to people to make them feel safe. No belief required.

Cohen from Dublin.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

@simon – “They don’t share their entire beings, yet they share their God-nature.”

This is not Nicene Trinitarianism. The orthodoxy explicitly says that ‘Each person is fully God”. Not partially god, not a piece of God and certainly not overlapping subsets. When you say “The Venn diagram doesn’t fully overlap” you are asserting partial identity.  That implies that the Son has some divine properties that the  Father has, but not all. Either way “fully God” is out the window. Gone.

This is where Catholics argue that “They don’t need to be identical to share a God-nature.” I agree but the statement is fatal to the argument.

“The Son had a human body… so Father ≠ Son”

You are confusing Christology with Trinitarian ontology. Easily done when discussing non-existent entities. Christians say the Son has two natures (divine + human). But orthodox Trinitarian doctrine says that the Son is not just fully divine but has an identical divinity to the Father. Added the ‘property’ of being human (having human nature) is only to explain suffering and death so if Trinitarianism is correct, identity logic still applies and adding the baggage of also being human does not rescue it.

So, it is not a “mystery”. It is not a limitation of human understanding. It is a violation of what “being” and “identity” mean.

“It’s a human explanation… and runs the risk of being an artificial construct.”

I agree Simon. But once it is admitted that it is a model or a best explanation then the claim that the Trinity is revealed truth or even logically necessary is abandoned. Calling it a “model” concedes it’s a retrofit.

Identity Logic is is simple. If A = B and B = C, then A = C. To dig deeper I will mention Leibniz’s Law. Something a theologian will never do. If A = B, then A and B share all the same properties. If there exists even one property that differs, then A ≠ B.

What theologians and apologists will say is that “The Father and Son are identical in essence, but not identical as persons.” But this fails. Essence is what makes a thing the kind of thing it is and personhood is not an accidental add-on; it individuates agents. So if 2 persons differ then  by Leibniz’s Law, they are not identical.

Either A = B or A ≠ B. There is no third state, which is what the Trinity requires. It say they are Fully identical but not identical. You don’t to be Dr. Spock to see it is not logical. To call it a ‘mystery’ does not make it profound.

In simple terms, the concept of the Trinity was introduced to force monotheism upon the new religion. Without it, Christianity would be a polytheist cult. It is not mentioned in the Bible. The Trinity only survives by never being stated clearly but it fails because it asks identity to do something identity cannot do. And that, philosophically, tells us everything we need to know. Once you see that, you can’t unsee it.

 

[_Robert_Participant]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

In simple terms, the concept of the Trinity was introduced to force monotheism upon the new religion. Without it, Christianity would be a polytheist cult. It is not mentioned in the Bible. The Trinity only survives by never being stated clearly but it fails because it asks identity to do something identity cannot do. And that, philosophically, tells us everything we need to know. Once you see that, you can’t unsee it.

Yeah, only after they were conquered by Persians who held somewhat monotheistic Zoroastrian beliefs did the Jews begin to elevate their second-string storm god. The old pantheon became a cast of angels and demons. The most archaic bible bits are clear on the polytheistic beginnings, but once they adopted monotheism, “The One Great God” was the only way.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Reg, Robert, PopeBeanie, and Simon:

Now do you see why I am simply non-plussed by AI as it is currently constructed?

It puts out affirmation for every bit of nonsense King Iyk asserts. He’s turned AI into an “Eliza” program that guzzles every Kilowatt the power plants can crank out until the lights start flickering out, all to prove his three-in-one God.

A real Artificial Intelligence worthy of the name would do a whole lot of questioning back of at least some of the assumptions behind King Iyk’s inquiries and requests, much as Reg and Robert have. It would demand defining of terms and allow no question begging or other non-sequiteurs.

[_Robert_Participant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Reg, Robert, PopeBeanie, and Simon: Now do you see why I am simply non-plussed by AI as it is currently constructed? It puts out affirmation for every bit of nonsense King Iyk asserts. He’s turned AI into an “Eliza” program that guzzles every Kilowatt the power plants can crank out until the lights start flickering out, all to prove his three-in-one God. A real Artificial Intelligence worthy of the name would do a whole lot of questioning back of at least some of the assumptions behind King Iyk’s inquiries and requests, much as Reg and Robert have. It would demand defining of terms and allow no question begging or other non-sequiteurs.

Yes agreed. I have gotten contradictory answers from AI, just based on the wording of the question. General types of language model AI algos just look up and rehash what people have recorded in media. From my point of view, it seems that at least 3/4ths of the people walking this planet are incapable or unwilling to reject the media avalanche of untruths, assumptions, conspiracy theories, and magical claims.

The real beneficial power of AI is medical diagnosis, genetic medicine, battlefield management, software development, etc. It is just as useless as an apologist, priest, preacher, or rabbi when it comes to the non-existent supernatural or the nebulous field of “metaphysics” that theists love to abuse.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Robert:

The real beneficial power of AI is medical diagnosis, genetic medicine, battlefield management, software development, etc. It is just as useless as an apologist, priest, preacher, or rabbi when it comes to the non-existent supernatural or the nebulous field of “metaphysics” that theists love to abuse.

I’m sure at some point, AI reaches a limit on how much it can process competently at once, and all the requests to use numerology to argue theology and make King Trump cartoons will crowd out beneficial medical uses and software development.

And AI in the hands of a Putin or a Hamas would have a battlefield strategy of endless blood and treasure poured into a nonstop meatgrinder to achieve even the most frivolous Pyrric victory.

And all at great cost of energy input. The first thing AI needs to be used for is making Moore’s Law sync seamlessly with The Laws of Thermodynamics. The goal should be Nano-sized memory and processing powered by fission, geothermal, and Dyson Sphere scale solar or bust!

Stewart Brand’s famous words: “What it is, is up to us” can go in all directions.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

It puts out affirmation for every bit of nonsense

I think that AI flatters people.

[_Robert_Participant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Robert:

The real beneficial power of AI is medical diagnosis, genetic medicine, battlefield management, software development, etc. It is just as useless as an apologist, priest, preacher, or rabbi when it comes to the non-existent supernatural or the nebulous field of “metaphysics” that theists love to abuse.

I’m sure at some point, AI reaches a limit on how much it can process competently at once, and all the requests to use numerology to argue theology and make King Trump cartoons will crowd out beneficial medical uses and software development. And AI in the hands of a Putin or a Hamas would have a battlefield strategy of endless blood and treasure poured into a nonstop meatgrinder to achieve even the most frivolous Pyrric victory. And all at great cost of energy input. The first thing AI needs to be used for is making Moore’s Law sync seamlessly with The Laws of Thermodynamics. The goal should be Nano-sized memory and processing powered by fission, geothermal, and Dyson Sphere scale solar or bust! Stewart Brand’s famous words: “What it is, is up to us” can go in all directions.

Yeah, it is an uneasy bet that dictators won’t implement battlefield AI as well as democracies so I could be wrong about that. I think Ukraine has been outsmarting Putin for 4 years, but the idea of swarms of AI killing machines is chilling. AI will serve the best and worst of the morality of oligarchs, billionaires, politicians and dictators, so now I am not so positive. It is sad, but I have lost all trust our democracy.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

An AI proof isn’t proof.

Unless it’s a dedicated theorem prover, or an AI program which has specifically been asked to prove a theorem, without flattering the user.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

The Trinity presupposes a God-concept that the Bible itself never articulates. The God presented in the Bible is a single personal agent, whereas the Trinity redefines God as a “tri-personal” being which is a category shift not made by the biblical authors.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

The Trinity presupposes a God-concept that the Bible itself never articulates.

But that doesn’t prove the Trinity is wrong.

Can we atheists recognise the wrongness of a description of something we think doesn’t exist?  Not even wrong?

[jakelafortParticipant]

Our democracy and its institutions are only as strong as we are. And it is plain obvious that ideology is running amok and imprinting human minds as efficiently rrr nearly as Konrad’s ducks. These mofos on either side can critique the other side but are utterly incapable of seeing the pile of shit they stand by.

Ai and its incorporation into the battlefield is a fait accompli. Israel is leading the way driven as it is by relentless enemies. I have read and do in part believe that Israel is working frantically to augment and innovate knowing the arms race requires greater and greater sophistication and lethality. With or without Israel’s role in the development of AI battle bots and technological military advances its coming and it aint pretty. Although seeing dystopian sci fi movies/series and reading that genre pretty cool we get to observe the advent of a brave disgusting world as it is and will become as opposed to imagine.

[_Robert_Participant]

jakelafort wrote:

Our democracy and its institutions are only as strong as we are. And it is plain obvious that ideology is running amok and imprinting human minds as efficiently rrr nearly as Konrad’s ducks. These mofos on either side can critique the other side but are utterly incapable of seeing the pile of shit they stand by. Ai and its incorporation into the battlefield is a fait accompli. Israel is leading the way driven as it is by relentless enemies. I have read and do in part believe that Israel is working frantically to augment and innovate knowing the arms race requires greater and greater sophistication and lethality. With or without Israel’s role in the development of AI battle bots and technological military advances its coming and it aint pretty. Although seeing dystopian sci fi movies/series and reading that genre pretty cool we get to observe the advent of a brave disgusting world as it is and will become as opposed to imagine.

The simultaneous exploding pager operation by Israel was a notable use of (non-AI) tech. Literally balls to the wall. Using a Taiwanese company called “Gold Apollo” to market pagers rigged by a Hungarian company. Mossad even created fake YouTube ads to promote the pagers’ durability and long battery life to HAMAS. Even though AI will likely work to Israel’s advantage over their less capable enemies, the whole idea is still mind-numbing. Some of the stunts Ukraine pulls are amazing until the Russians start doing the same shit.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

@simon – I am not trying to prove it false. I am evaluating whether it is textually grounded and conceptually coherent. I was doing conceptual analysis, not arguing metaphysics. The doctrine of the Trinity is not derivable from the text it claims as its source. My claim stands, irrespective of the existence or not of the Christian God. I’m not claiming the Trinity is metaphysically false. I’m saying it is not a biblical description, but a later theological construction. Whether it’s true or false is a separate question. Therefore if someone believes in the “God of the Trinity”, they are not believing in the God of the Bible…..unless they believe in 2 gods.

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