Conservatives say that Putin doesn't fear Biden because…

[TheEncogitationer]

Davis,

A politicians foremost job is getting into power, second is staying in power, third is doing some of the things they originally wanted to do. People don’t seem to realise this applies to ALL politicians…not just Trump. The only exception with Trump was that he only gave a shit about 1 and 2 and had no 3 at all.

Biden is capable of being strong if it serves 1, 2 or 3 in that order. If threatening an all out trade war with Russia will keep him from accomplishing 1, 2 or 3 he will not do it. Definitely the case with putting troops in Ukraine. I don’t know what any US president would gain from that in achieving 1 or 2 and it is even dubious it would accomplish any of their important number 3s.

Had Biden not closed the Keystone XL pipeline and shut down fracking, we could have sent Ukraine and all of Europe the means of providing their energy needs without them depending on Putin and they would have the energy to manufacture and trade for arms and provide for their own defense without risking one U.S. life.

As it stands now, having given up on our caché in energy trade, we may be embroiled in a shooting war that may rachet up to Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical (NBC 🦚 “Boom!–Booooom!–Boom!” but nothing to be “Proud As A Peacock” about.)

By the way, given your very true observation about politicians, isn’t it a losing bet to depend on them for womb-to-tomb economic security?

• This reply was modified 4 years, 1 month ago by TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling and addendum

[Unseen]

@Enco

I think that Biden is too old to be President, but I would apply that to anyone his age, and I am in his age range. I’d like to see American presidential candidates having to be at least 35 and at most 60 to run for office. At least 35 to have the basic maturity the office needs and at most 60 to keep anyone from being in their 70’s in the office even if they win a second term. The top corporations are full of CEO’s in their 60’s but relatively few in their 70’s and beyond, and for good reason.

I do not think Biden is suffering from dementia, just from being old and from being an unimaginative party-line Democrat.

[—]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Autumn, What else is it if not national nihilism and suicide for a President to use Executive power to cripple the ability of Citizens in his nation to provide for their own energy production?

Environmental protection in the face of increasing global warming concerns along with various regional environmental concerns. Whether you agree that it achieves that effect or not, that was the driving force. If you can’t be honest about that, there’s no productive basis for a discussion in my eyes.

What else is it but mentally decrepit when that same President has to beg Saudi Arabia and Iran–two of the most reprehensible Theocratic tyrannies on the Planet–to keep the oil flowing after he’s stopped oil from flowing in his own nation?

Hyperbole. First, Biden didn’t stop oil from flowing in the United States. He may have stopped some production sources or potential projects, but even blocking Keystone XL doesn’t limit production; it prevents a new avenue of transportation (and it’s mostly not American domestic production anyway). Second, the US exports more petroleum product and crude oil than it imports from OPEC nations. Generally, the trend has long been a reduction in OPEC oil imports. Iran has not featured significantly in US oil imports. Actually, it hadn’t featured at all for a long time due to sanctions. Fourth, oil started coming in from Iran October 2020. Who was president then? Fifth, Biden proposed new sanctions on Iranian oil as recent as last summer.

While I am sure the possibility of trade negotiations always remains open, and while ethics may not always rank as highly as we like in those deals, the idea that Biden is begging Saudi Arabia and Iran for oil is… far-fetched.

And what else is it but mentally decrepit to be self-disabled to respond to a global aggressor like Vladamir Putin, who would turn tail and run if the U.S.could supply Ukraine and the rest of Europe with Light Sweet Crude and horizontal drilling technology?

An incoherent and unsubstantiated argument.

[Unseen]

@Autumn

Enco doesn’t seem to understand that since oil is a fungible product, so no nation or person alone has much control over oil prices. One can always get it somewhere else if one source’s price is too high. In fact, the U.S. doesn’t need OPEC oil. We’re self-sufficient now. Even so, the oil we produce has to be priced in line with the world price, and Biden has virtually no control over that.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 1 month ago by Unseen.

[jakelafort]

Autumn please refrain from being factual and making cogent arguments.

It is not polite to dispel and dispatch ideological rhetoric.

[jakelafort]

During the US civil war the Confederates threatened England with so called King Cotton Diplomacy. They would have to get their cotton elsewhere unless they gave aid. But cotton like oil is all over the world. I think England got most of their cotton from India after that failed strategy.

[_Robert_]

It is like we have forgotten about all the thermonuclear weapons. Not the greatest idea to back a bear into a corner.

[jakelafort]

I don’t know man. Nucs are foremost in my judgment. However my best guess is that Putin is rational enough to avoid that possibility. I would not feel as confident with the Korean nut.

Saber rattling is a metaphor that is anachronistic.

[_Robert_]

Well, sure Putin is a murderer/dictator but remember that when he asked for Russia to be in NATO, we laughed it off. Then when he objected to NATO expansionism, we laughed. After 9/11 he offered to help as we made war in his neighborhood (for the 2nd time, after Serbia). And then we let the nuclear treaties lapse because of Crimea. We really could use Russia as an ally again, seeing a very nationalistic (but not really even communist) China emerge as the real threat, but we missed that opportunity.

Russia has never known democracy. We did not do much to help when the USSR dissolved.

[Unseen]

_Robert_ wrote:

It is like we have forgotten about all the thermonuclear weapons. Not the greatest idea to back a bear into a corner.

But aren’t we the ones who are backed into a corner and are fighting with sanctions hoping to get out? Putin is acting virtually without restraint, and sanctions like banning Russia from the SWIFT system (which is probably next on the sanction agenda) will hurt the common Russian far more than Putin. I really don’t believe he keeps all of his wealth in a checking or savings account. At best, our sanctions may cause chaos and turmoil in Russia but Putin strikes me as a survivor.

[_Robert_]

Unseen wrote:

_Robert_ wrote:

It is like we have forgotten about all the thermonuclear weapons. Not the greatest idea to back a bear into a corner.

But aren’t we the ones who are backed into a corner and are fighting with sanctions hoping to get out? Putin is acting virtually without restraint, and sanctions like banning Russia from the SWIFT system (which is probably next on the sanction agenda) will hurt the common Russian far more than Putin. I really don’t believe he keeps all of his wealth in a checking or savings account. At best, our sanctions may cause chaos and turmoil in Russia but Putin strikes me as a survivor.

I am more concerned about an accident because NATO forces are so close and this whole thing could get out of control so fast but when was the last time we had large anti-nuke protests in the US? The doomsday clock is ticking.

[TheEncogitationer]

Autumn,

Environmental protection in the face of increasing global warming concerns along with various regional environmental concerns. Whether you agree that it achieves that effect or not, that was the driving force. If you can’t be honest about that, there’s no productive basis for a discussion in my eyes.

And having priorities like that when we’re suffering from debt, inflation, and supply chain issues at home and facing the prospect of global war abroad is national nihilism and suicide.

Hyperbole. First, Biden didn’t stop oil from flowing in the United States. He may have stopped some production sources or potential projects,

So he didn’t but he did. Refer to Law of Non-Contradiction.

but even blocking Keystone XL doesn’t limit production; it prevents a new avenue of transportation (and it’s mostly not American domestic production anyway).

You can’t make crude oil into derivative products without transporting it to refineries. Production and transportation are all of a single piece.

And thanks to the Jones Act, U.S.goods can’t go to U.S. ports unless the ship is U.S.-made, flies a U.S. Flag, and has a crew that is at least 75% U.S. Citizens. Because we don’t have sufficient ships that meet those requirements, we are hamstrung on using ships to get our own oil. Even Alaskan citizens can’t get their own oils to refineries or even use it’s derivative products because of the Jones Act and insufficient roads to transport the oil from wells to refineries.

As long as this ridiculous Jones Act is in place, pipelines are the most economical way to send oil and, given the frequency of U.S. road accidents, pipelines are the most ecologically safe way to go. When Biden blocked the Keystone XL Pipeline, it was an economic, engineering, and logistical disaster.

Second, the US exports more petroleum product and crude oil than it imports from OPEC nations. Generally, the trend has long been a reduction in OPEC oil imports.

That’s because, prior to Biden, we were starting to produce and refine more of our own oil. We started fracking and making new discoveries in the the ANWR region of Alaska and the Dakotas in the early Double-Aughts, and really, we could have done it even earlier in the Eighties.

Iran has not featured significantly in US oil imports. Actually, it hadn’t featured at all for a long time due to sanctions. Fourth, oil started coming in from Iran October 2020. Who was president then? Fifth, Biden proposed new sanctions on Iranian oil as recent as last summer

While I am sure the possibility of trade negotiations always remains open, and while ethics may not always rank as highly as we like in those deals, the idea that Biden is begging Saudi Arabia and Iran for oil is… far-fetched..

Not true. Biden’s begging is happening now with Saudi Arabia and Iran knows it has Biden literally over a barrel:

Biden sends diplomats to negotiate more oil production from Saudi Arabia
Virginia Aabram, Washington Examiner Feb 17, 2022 View Comments
https://gazette.com/news/biden-sends-diplomats-to-negotiate-more-oil-production-from-saudi-arabia/article_9400363c-89bb-5833-9aac-15747d7861ef.html

Iran Cleric Demands Removal of Banking, Oil Sanctions
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/senior-iran-cleric-demands-removal-of-banking-oil-sanctions/ar-AAUinVz

• This reply was modified 4 years, 1 month ago by TheEncogitationer. Reason: Correcting tag and grammar

[TheEncogitationer]

Unseen,

Enco doesn’t seem to understand that since oil is a fungible product, so no nation or person alone has much control over oil prices. One can always get it somewhere else if one source’s price is too high. In fact, the U.S. doesn’t need OPEC oil. We’re self-sufficient now. Even so, the oil we produce has to be priced in line with the world price, and Biden has virtually no control over that.

The Law of Supply and Demand applies to any product. All that you just wrote about oil would be true…if you just used the past tense.

By blocking the Keystone XL Pipeline and blocking fracking, Biden just lowered the available overall supply of oil and gave the oil edge back to Saudi Arabia, Iran, the other OPEC nations, and, of course, Russia. Which means everyone else is more dependent on these hostile, anti-Western, anti-freedom sources.

[TheEncogitationer]

Robert,

We really could use Russia as an ally again, seeing a very nationalistic (but not really even communist) China emerge as the real threat, but we missed that opportunity.

Russia and Red China have long since dropped hostilities and had joint military maneuvers in the early 2000s. Though Russia’s invasion of Ukraine kind of calls unwanted attention to Red China’s earlier shut-down of Hong Kong and Red China’s aspirations for Taiwan, this shouldn’t be a deal-breaker between the two.

If anything, Red China may be emboldened by Russia’s predations…or Hong Kong and Taiwan may be emboldened by Ukrainian resistance.

Must wait and see. I hope the good guys on both sides of the world prevail over the bullies on the block.

[TheEncogitationer]

Jake,

During the US civil war the Confederates threatened England with so called King Cotton Diplomacy. They would have to get their cotton elsewhere unless they gave aid. But cotton like oil is all over the world. I think England got most of their cotton from India after that failed strategy.

And once the U.S. re-opens the Keystone XL Pipeline, starts back fracking, opens more refineries, digs for more Uranium, builds new and better breeder reactors, and makes Carbon Nanotubes to solar panels in orbit, no Russian Neo-Commissar, no Saudi Sheikh, no Iranian Ayatollah, or no OPEC Tin-Horn will ever be able to extort us or our allies again.

They will all collectively be The New Lost Cause.

[Author]

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