I believe there's no rhinoceros in my coat closet

[.]

@Reg

Have you still not been able to work out what we mean by evidence? Why is it such a problem for you?

Because no one including you has answered my question. What evidence would convince you? If subjective evidence is never going to be enough what objective evidence are you looking for exactly? I asked that months ago and I haven’t gotten a straight answer from people but it’s a serious question. That fact that no one can really answer it makes me think that you all just use that as an excuse to put it back on theists to provide “evidence” loosely defined and you would say “No that’s not good enough” no matter what anyone says. There are PLENTY of examples of God intervening in miraculous ways in this world and yet you say there is always some sort of “other” explanation- but for some things that happened to me there isn’t….

[Dang Martin]

Belle Rose wrote:

There are PLENTY of examples of God intervening in miraculous ways in this world and yet you say there is always some sort of “other” explanation- but for some things that happened to me there isn’t….

How would you know that it is your god, Yahweh, who is intervening, and not Allah, or Vishnu, or any of the other gods? Was it wearing a name tag at the time? Did it identify itself by name?

Are you certain that these examples of intervention were not carried out by a god who has no relation to any of the religions that are commercially-available for purchase today?

When these things happen, what is it that makes this an example?

[Unseen]

Belle Rose wrote:

RE: Wow that’s a weird position to take! Is that really how you view all atheists? That’s a bit tragic really.

I guess I should specify that of course not ALL atheists. But prominent atheists like Richard Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris….Yeah they all have giant chips on their shoulders. Calling theists as if suffering from some kind of mental disorder. They even blatantly say it! Fuck that.

Yes, they all have a giant chips on their shoulders. They are elitists. And it’s because they are the elite who see the connection between religion and abuse of children (spare the rod, spoil the child) and women (clitorectomies, the immorality of birth control, and wives should take a back seat to their husbands). They see the promotion of believing things because they are pleasant or comforting even when there’s little evidence for them as training the kind of thinking process that results in phenomena like Donald Trump, climate science denial, and ridiculous notions like creationism and the coexistence of cave men with dinosaurs.

Okay, I’ve explained the terrible abuses promoted by religion. What are the terrible abuses promoted by atheists like Dawkins, Harris, et al?

Yeah, they’re elitists alright: the kind we need.

[Unseen]

Belle Rose wrote:

@Reg

Have you still not been able to work out what we mean by evidence? Why is it such a problem for you?

Because no one including you has answered my question. What evidence would convince you? If subjective evidence is never going to be enough what objective evidence are you looking for exactly? I asked that months ago and I haven’t gotten a straight answer from people but it’s a serious question. That fact that no one can really answer it makes me think that you all just use that as an excuse to put it back on theists to provide “evidence” loosely defined and you would say “No that’s not good enough” no matter what anyone says. There are PLENTY of examples of God intervening in miraculous ways in this world and yet you say there is always some sort of “other” explanation- but for some things that happened to me there isn’t….

What kind of evidence would convince us that God exists? Frankly, probably none. And why? Because the God conjecture is paradoxical like Hawking’s information paradox (which, if true, would have meant that physical laws are bullshit). If God exists, we know nothing. All metals expand when heated? True…unless God intervenes.

The notion that a cosmic sorcerer created the universe, a universe so vast we cannot even comprehend its size, and yet he (it’s a he, right? in a universe with no female counterparts)…he chose one insignificant planet as the sole focus of his attention. That doesn’t strike you as particularly ODD?

God clearly approves of slavery and the persecution of gays. It’s there in The Holy Bible. Then there’s the cruelty and violence. He’s your preferred God, I take it, and he reveals himself to mankind in many ways. Or, if you disagree with The Holy Bible and all those nasty passage, then what makes your understanding of God’s nature better than theirs?

The God of The Holy Bible is terrible. If he has favored you, how can you accept favors from such a…a demon?

[Davis]

Belle Rose wrote:

@Reg

Have you still not been able to work out what we mean by evidence? Why is it such a problem for you?

Because no one including you has answered my question. What evidence would convince you?

Belle…this fibbing of yours over us not telling you “what kind of evidence do you need” bullshit is becoming a neural-psychosis. It is an outright lie. Stop lying. We answered your question about what kind of evidence would we need for God multiple times and worse, this is actually the 3rd time I’ve brought up the fact that you keep lying about it. It is infuriating that you think its okay to mischaracterize our long and patiently typed responses to your questions over nearly a year…and then be told we have’t done something that we actually have…MULTIPLE TIMES. Why do you keep doing that?

[Davis]

Unseen wrote:

Okay, I’ve explained the terrible abuses promoted by religion. What are the terrible abuses promoted by atheists like Dawkins, Harris, et al?

+1 unseen! I hope it is answered.

[.]

@Davis: I’m not lying! I’m being honest. I don’t feel like anyone has given me an answer that is both serious and tangible. I can’t access TA or I would quote lines from that thread a line at a time and tell you why I don’t feel like the answers ever addressed the heart of my question. If you think they did – that is YOUR subjective opinion…..

But that is precisely MY point. If a group of atheists cannot concur about what evidence would look like how can anyone provide it? Hell even scientists when conducting experiments have an understanding of what outcomes they predict or are expecting and some semblance of an idea as to what those outcomes determine. If you want objective evidence (not subjective) you need to spell out seriously and precisely what you mean by that.

The answers on that thread no matter how well thought out they were were all either too vague, or just a mockery of the question to begin with. And yet many people even admitted that if they saw that evidence they would STILL doubt it. So what I took away from that conversation that I was seriously trying to have genuinely was that when an atheist says they require evidence it’s really just a cop out.

 

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

Belle, what sort of evidence would you need to believe that there really  is a rhino in the closet?

[.]

@Reg that is not an apples to apples comparison. And those kind of silly comparisons is where a lot of the arguments I’ve seen on TA break down.

“I believe in a purple dinosaur on Jupiter” type stuff and you really expect me to take that seriously? Really? For so-called “more mature ” position it doesn’t seem like it.

[Davis]

Your God is a very incredible entity. It breaks the laws of nature. It has very specific qualities and does things in a very specific way. It does certain insanely cosmic things. It does things that thousands of humans experience.

Okay…let’s see some incredible thing that breaks the laws of nature, is experienced by thousands of people, has this very specific God’s stamp on it (and not some other), and demonstrates its specific qualities. That’s what we expect. Let’s see something that lives up to the incredible nature of your God. We’ve given more than enough reasonable examples. You think expecting the incredible and very specific to be unreasonable or ridiculous. That’s your problem. You want us to lower our standards of evidence in accepting your very very specific world view. Sorry. No reasonable person would do this. We answered your question. Please stop saying we haven’t.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by Davis.
• This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by Davis.

[.]

@Unseen

The notion that theists are suffering from a mental illness.

It is a blatant hypocrisy to take the stance they take meanwhile demeaning the majority of the world population.

Its the exact mentality they hope to eradicate but they are inadvertently participating in the problem.

[Davis]

 

Belle. What kind of evidence would you expect before you accepted that all supernatural events (creation, resurrection, epic events, voices in your head, reincarnation, things appearing and disappearing, things that break the laws of nature) are generated from cosmic-bodies-consciousness…that is, the minds of all stars and planets…which consists of their collective thoughts…working together in unison to shape the universe and our minds. They created themselves and fought for a long time until finally they came to peace and agreed to put order into the cosmos. Also, they think humans are special and have put a lot of thought and care into our DNA. They like the colour pink, they don’t approve of sex in the morning, they prefer that people end their lives whenever they feel like it, they think you should never ever tell a lie, that people born with disabilities are special people who go to an extra special place when they die and that Every five weeks we should take a long walk with our entire family. Also, they demand we don’t wear anything made of silk and never eat dairy products under any circumstances. If you open your mind you can hear the voices of several of them talking to you in musical waves.

So…what kind of evidence would you need to accept that this rather specific cosmic-bodies-consciousness is behind it all?

[.]

@Davis

RE: You want us to lower our standards of evidence in accepting your very very specific world view. Sorry. No reasonable person would do this.

No I don’t. I NEVER said anything like that. I just want to challenge everything to figure out what I believe and you keep getting all defensive and presuming like you think you know exactly what I believe and you think you know what I want. Why are you getting so defensive when I try to poke holes in your logic?

[.]

RE: So…what kind of evidence would you need to accept that this rather specific cosmic-bodies-consciousness is behind it all?

Your entire characterization in this post is way off base from what I’m talking about when I refer to God and what I have learned and what I think. It’s yet another example of how you take a concept and twist it into an extreme concoction that is way out in left field. It makes you sound intelligent but it makes it impossible to have a normal conversation about it

[Dang Martin]

Belle Rose wrote:

I just want to challenge everything to figure out what I believe and you keep getting all defensive and presuming like you think you know exactly what I believe and you think you know what I want.

You seem to know what others believe, and yet you don’t understand your own. Interesting.

[Author]

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