Are right and wrong and the related duties possible without absolutes

Homepage Forums Small Talk Are right and wrong and the related duties possible without absolutes

This topic contains 161 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Davis 1 week, 4 days ago.

Viewing 12 posts - 151 through 162 (of 162 total)
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  • #40011

    Unseen
    Participant

    Like Plato’s forms, they can just exist as metaphysical facts.

    Surely you mean metaphysical concepts. A fact is something that by definition has some kind of existence.

    Hey, Davis, check this out: Plato’s forms aren’t facts and don’t exist.

    #40012

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Plato’s forms aren’t facts and don’t exist.

    They exist as perfect ideals.  Are perfect ideals facts?  It is a fact that something can be a perfect ideal.

    But can a perfect ideal itself be a fact?  Does it have that status?

    #40013

    Unseen
    Participant

    Lets see. I would include philosophers, neuroscientists, social psychologists and perhaps artificial intelligence. I am saying it is a way to arrive at something reasonable. They wont have the cozy absolutist feelings of a mythical stone tablet with the ten commandments. But it is the best we can do. Just guidance.

    You can’t escape the basic question: Why this group of “philosophers, neuroscientists, social psychologists and perhaps artificial intelligence” folk rather than some other set of folk bringing different beliefs and attitudes to the table? What criteria are you using, other than your own attitudes and opinions, when selecting this gaggle of specialists?

    #40014

    Unseen
    Participant

    Plato’s forms aren’t facts and don’t exist.

    They exist as perfect ideals. Are perfect ideals facts? It is a fact that something can be a perfect ideal. But can a perfect ideal itself be a fact? Does it have that status?

    I assure you that in Plato the forms enjoy far more facticity than things in the real world, which he analogizes to shadows on a wall.

    #40015

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    in Plato the forms enjoy far more facticity than things in the real world

    Well, they don’t sound like the normal kind of facts.  A special Plato kind of facts.

    #40016

    Davis
    Moderator

    Plato’s forms aren’t facts and don’t exist.

    Sounds like someone skimmed the wikipedia article.

    #40017

    I just dropped my triangle and damaged it beyond repair. Just perfect!

    #40019

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Unseen, if it is my creation then i am going to exclude any founders who are ideologues, who are not amenable to persuasion when a better argument presents, and i am going to look for people who are interested in the welfare of the masses as opposed to particular classes of skinny or fat asses. Yes that reflects a preexisting value judgment. I want some balance of individual arete and aid for those who are in need. Quite naturally you won’t sit on my panel unless you are an exceptional thinker. I also want thinkers with a great knowledge of history and culture. Furthermore i am gonna require the experts to come to a consensus. In horse racing consensus selections usually outperform individual handicapper’s. I expect that to be the case in this endeavor also.

    Cultural relativists can find another think tank.

    #40021

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Sounds like someone skimmed the wikipedia article.

    Can you say in what way ideal forms are facts?

    #40023

    Davis
    Moderator

    I don’t take Plato’s forms seriously, so no…they are not facts as far as I am concerned and I see them of little (if any) philosophical use besides understanding the history of Western thought. However, for Plato…the forms were real, if not the ONLY real thing where even we humans were just imitations of forms. They were NOT some vague shadowy conceptual entity. Per the theory, forms are as close as you can get to facts because they are the only things that are real.

    #40035

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    little (if any) philosophical use

    Moral principles are ideal forms or concepts.  Each one consists of a particular ideal pattern of behaviour within various situations.

    #40037

    Davis
    Moderator

    Moral principles are ideal forms or concepts.

    Sigh

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