Are right and wrong and the related duties possible without absolutes

[UnseenParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Unseen wrote:

Like Plato’s forms, they can just exist as metaphysical facts.

Surely you mean metaphysical concepts. A fact is something that by definition has some kind of existence.

Hey, Davis, check this out: Plato’s forms aren’t facts and don’t exist.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

Plato’s forms aren’t facts and don’t exist.

They exist as perfect ideals.  Are perfect ideals facts?  It is a fact that something can be a perfect ideal.

But can a perfect ideal itself be a fact?  Does it have that status?

[UnseenParticipant]

jakelafort wrote:

Lets see. I would include philosophers, neuroscientists, social psychologists and perhaps artificial intelligence. I am saying it is a way to arrive at something reasonable. They wont have the cozy absolutist feelings of a mythical stone tablet with the ten commandments. But it is the best we can do. Just guidance.

You can’t escape the basic question: Why this group of “philosophers, neuroscientists, social psychologists and perhaps artificial intelligence” folk rather than some other set of folk bringing different beliefs and attitudes to the table? What criteria are you using, other than your own attitudes and opinions, when selecting this gaggle of specialists?

[UnseenParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Unseen wrote:

Plato’s forms aren’t facts and don’t exist.

They exist as perfect ideals. Are perfect ideals facts? It is a fact that something can be a perfect ideal. But can a perfect ideal itself be a fact? Does it have that status?

I assure you that in Plato the forms enjoy far more facticity than things in the real world, which he analogizes to shadows on a wall.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

in Plato the forms enjoy far more facticity than things in the real world

Well, they don’t sound like the normal kind of facts.  A special Plato kind of facts.

[DavisModerator]

Plato’s forms aren’t facts and don’t exist.

Sounds like someone skimmed the wikipedia article.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

I just dropped my triangle and damaged it beyond repair. Just perfect!

[jakelafortParticipant]

Unseen, if it is my creation then i am going to exclude any founders who are ideologues, who are not amenable to persuasion when a better argument presents, and i am going to look for people who are interested in the welfare of the masses as opposed to particular classes of skinny or fat asses. Yes that reflects a preexisting value judgment. I want some balance of individual arete and aid for those who are in need. Quite naturally you won’t sit on my panel unless you are an exceptional thinker. I also want thinkers with a great knowledge of history and culture. Furthermore i am gonna require the experts to come to a consensus. In horse racing consensus selections usually outperform individual handicapper’s. I expect that to be the case in this endeavor also.

Cultural relativists can find another think tank.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Davis wrote:

Sounds like someone skimmed the wikipedia article.

Can you say in what way ideal forms are facts?

[DavisModerator]

I don’t take Plato’s forms seriously, so no…they are not facts as far as I am concerned and I see them of little (if any) philosophical use besides understanding the history of Western thought. However, for Plato…the forms were real, if not the ONLY real thing where even we humans were just imitations of forms. They were NOT some vague shadowy conceptual entity. Per the theory, forms are as close as you can get to facts because they are the only things that are real.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Davis wrote:

little (if any) philosophical use

Moral principles are ideal forms or concepts.  Each one consists of a particular ideal pattern of behaviour within various situations.

[DavisModerator]

Moral principles are ideal forms or concepts.

Sigh

[Author]

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