Maybe Not Woo, But Just As Silly and Deadly: "Vaccine Guilt"

Homepage Forums Small Talk Maybe Not Woo, But Just As Silly and Deadly: "Vaccine Guilt"

This topic contains 15 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  _Robert_ 3 months ago.

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  • #36859

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers,

    As if Anti-Vax hysteria and superstition isn’t bad enough, as if  “vaccine hesitancy” isn’t bad enough, now there are people who actually feel guilty over getting the damn vaccine!

    I first heard about this a few days back while flipping the dial on the radio and there was a Philopsophy Professor from UMass Lowell named Nicholas Evans talking about guilt over getting the virus in the face of “systemic inequities in the health care system.”  (This was on NPR Welfare Radio’s program “The Takeaway.”)

    I searched further about “vaccine guilt” and yep, there are others feeling this guilt:

    Coronavirus Vaccine Guilt is a Real Thing, and l Feel the Weight of It

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/coronavirus-vaccine-guilt-is-a-real-thing/ar-BB1eq6Om

    I’m thinking: Is this just another form of Original Sin, where people feel guilt for having been born as “fallen” human beings who are Jonathan Edwards’ “Sinners in the Hands of An Angry God?”

    And do any of these people even understand how vaccination and immunization even works?  Do they even Herd Immunity, Bruh?

    Don’t they see that getting vaccines is an act of rational self-interest that also helps protect fellow human beings who may be too young, too old, too ill, or with expired immunity from getting disease?

    What about Red China’s Commissars who suppressed word of the disease by killing off the Doctors who discovered COVID-19?  Or the looters and rioters who’ve spread COVID-19 with their nihilistic acts?  Or so-called “experts” whose policies have held back coping with and innoculating against COVID-19 and forced patients into convalescent homes with vulnerable elderly?  Don’t all of these deserve guilt more than someone saving themselves and others through vaccination?

    I say if you can get the vaccine, do so without a single hitch.  If they could make it Over-The-Counter with an Epi-Pen-type vehicle, that would be wonderful too.

    • This topic was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Pause for Station Identification
    #36861

    Autumn
    Participant

    It’s not silly or deadly. It doesn’t reduce the number of vaccines being given at any point in time. It’s just an emotional/ empathic response to a prioritization system that may leave people in greater need exposed to greater risk for longer.

    Whether others should feel more guilt or not is largely irrelevant to examining one’s own actions and privileges.

    #36862

    _Robert_
    Participant

    If you partied, killed grandma and then got vaccinated..some guilt could result in a life lesson perhaps. Reading some of the sad posts on reddit over the last few months, there is going to be plenty of guilt to go around. And now with people acting like this thing is over…. the updated US death estimates for this pandemic are >600,000. Attacking Asian Americans? Yeah just another idea from the far (always wrong) right.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19positive/

    #36864

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Kristina,

    It’s not silly or deadly. It doesn’t reduce the number of vaccines being given at any point in time. It’s just an emotional/ empathic response to a prioritization system that may leave people in greater need exposed to greater risk for longer.

    True, “vaccine guilt” doesn’t decrease the number of vaccines, but neither does it increase them, when increased availability is what’s needed most.  Hence, “vaccine guilt” is a silly waste of time and emotional energy.

    And if “vaccine guilt” intimidates someone from getting the vaccine, then “vaccine guilt” is deadly, both for the person not getting the vaccine and those around them, and above all, those treating the person for the disease.

    My empathy takes the form of self-care that benefits others and the form of outcry against senseless holding up of progress.

    Whether others should feel more guilt or not is largely irrelevant to examining one’s own actions and privileges.

    Very true.  I’m not refusing a vaccine and a chance to protect myself and those around me because of someone else’s misplaced guilt.   I just hope they get over their guilt, seal up the immunity phalanx, and call for bureaucracy to get out of the way.

    #36865

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Robert,

    If you partied, killed grandma and then got vaccinated..some guilt could result in a life lesson perhaps.

    Very true.  I recently met an EMT who actually said he thought COVID-19 was a joke.  I thought: “Yep, I’ll do Roman-style self-cauterizing or die in the streets before I’d call on this lunk-head for help.” 🙄

     

    Reading some of the sad posts on reddit over the last few months, there is going to be plenty of guilt to go around. And now with people acting like this thing is over…. the updated US death estimates for this pandemic are >600,000.

    This is over 10 times the number of U.S. Citizens who died in the Vietnam War…and while, yes, other conditions kill more, COVID-19 also affects the ability of Physicians and  Nurses to treat the other deadly afflictions.  It’s all of a single piece.

    Attacking Asian Americans? Yeah just another idea from the far (always wrong) right.

    Asian people were the first ones struck when the Commisars of Beijing suppressed knowledge of the disease and allowed it to spread, so to blame all Asians for COVID-19 is truly stupid.

    And Asians I am sure will be cheering the loudest if members of the Chinese Communist Party and the People’s Liberation Army ever get their version of a Nuremberg trial.

    #36867

    Autumn
    Participant

    Kristina,

    It’s not silly or deadly. It doesn’t reduce the number of vaccines being given at any point in time. It’s just an emotional/ empathic response to a prioritization system that may leave people in greater need exposed to greater risk for longer.

    True, “vaccine guilt” doesn’t decrease the number of vaccines, but neither does it increase them, when increased availability is what’s needed most. Hence, “vaccine guilt” is a silly waste of time and emotional energy.

    This makes no sense. Of course it doesn’t increase them and obviously more vaccines are needed. The article makes no sense if the author assumes either premise to be false.

    It’s not a waste of time to consider how health care is managed and distributed. Even if vaccine distribution plans remain the same for the remainder of this pandemic, there will need to be further preparedness planning and training for possible future pandemics or emergent health crises, and that planning should be informed by what did and did not go well this time around. It’s not a bad thing for people to be tuned into that and thinking about it, or about inequity in general.

    And if “vaccine guilt” intimidates someone from getting the vaccine, then “vaccine guilt” is deadly, both for the person not getting the vaccine and those around them, and above all, those treating the person for the disease.

    There is absolutely no reason to believe this intimidates anyone from getting the vaccine. At most, they might let someone else take higher priority for it, but there’s no evidence of that either. Even the author of the article got the vaccine when it was made available to them.

    My empathy takes the form of self-care that benefits others and the form of outcry against senseless holding up of progress.

    On the first part, perhaps, but on the second point, not in this case. No one is holding up progress here.

    Whether others should feel more guilt or not is largely irrelevant to examining one’s own actions and privileges.

    Very true. I’m not refusing a vaccine and a chance to protect myself and those around me because of someone else’s misplaced guilt. I just hope they get over their guilt, seal up the immunity phalanx, and call for bureaucracy to get out of the way.

    Who is refusing the vaccine in this scenario? The guilt stems from a belief that it’s needed by everyone capable of getting it.

    #36875

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    It’s not silly or deadly. It doesn’t reduce the number of vaccines being given at any point in time. It’s just an emotional/ empathic response to a prioritization system that may leave people in greater need exposed to greater risk for longer.

    This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the OP, so I don’t have to repeat it. (Much.)

    And do any of these people even understand how vaccination and immunization even works?  Do they even Herd Immunity, Bruh?

    Don’t they see that getting vaccines is an act of rational self-interest that also helps protect fellow human beings who may be too young, too old, too ill, or with expired immunity from getting disease?

    As long as we’re still short on vaccine, Herd Immunity works almost the same whether I take a dose or someone else gets it. I say “almost” because there’s a trade-off wrt which risks one is most interested in reducing. E.g. either reduce the rate of transmission in a typically highly social (or behaviorally careless) demographic, or reduce the chances of the less healthy having to go to hospital or ICU. It’s like a trade-off between fighting fast moving grass fires vs instead making a fire break around the forest that’s downwind. (Forgive me if that’s a weak analogy… I’ve tried to think of a better one to help other complainers understand the complexity and necessary arbitrariness of these kinds of zero-sum tradeoffs.)

    Not interested in responding to your Whataboutist paragraph.

    But about empathy. My “mask tech” is leakproof, HEPA level, including an awesome home-made, full-face respirator that reduces AQI 200 level air down to zero. Back during our 2017 fires when people either left town or stayed indoors for days, in a city normally busy with 1/4 million people within about ten square miles, I walked downtown with my full-face (snorkel-mask with HEPA vacuum cleaner filter mounted on a milk jug with a CPAP hose) respirator, took the parking lot elevator up to the top at the 5th level, and saw totally empty streets, for as far as I could see… well okay, maybe less than a half-mile through the smoke and haze.

    Inside my apartment was a box fan with filters slapped on it and reliably held on just by fan suction, which could clean all the air in my place in less than 20 minutes, and then keep it clean for days running at low speed. It all cost me less than $100, even including the full face respirator kit.

    So what? Well, my vehicle’s in storage and I take public transportation, and believe me, I’ve seen a lot of clueless and/or mask-careless and distancing-careless passengers, and now I NEED those trusty air cleaning devices, especially when the busses are unpredictably populated, even just to get groceries periodically. I’m 67 with risk-laden preconditions, and it wears me out sometimes. Sometimes I just want to punch some of those people. But no, I still have empathy. Maybe they’re just not educated enough. May they love Trump so much they just take his “don’t worry about it” poison.

    I can take care of myself better than 90% of them can, and since there’s not enough empathetic, scientific, medically-informed people with spine to enforce pandemic precautions, not only are businesses killed by their ignorance and carelessness — e.g. the most God-loving conservatives come to mind, but we’re not even talking yet about spending and amount of probably less than 1% of those economic losses on pandemic prevention. We could have stopped this pandemic in only two or three months of know-how, preparation, and vigilance. All I’m hearing right how is whining about what is or isn’t “fair”, and who deserves blame for it, from people who don’t even have a clue of how this got out of hand to begin with.

    Yeah, I err in long term investment in empathy, science, medicine, and public health, at a tiny cost compared to what we’ve suffered with our blindered idealism of purely short term investment in quarterly profits.

    (So, you like MSN, or you picked that story because it proves that Stupid exists?)

    Dang, I forgot to mention… only this morning, my VA clinic called me to set up my first ModeRNA dose on Wednesday! Only about six more weeks of having to worry about taking anti-ICU-bound, life-saving measures. I know, it may still be contagious even if I’m safe from it, so I’ll still wear the simple masks that keep any droplets from coughs, sneezes, or angry shouting going very far.

    #36878

    _Robert_
    Participant

    …my VA clinic called me to set up my first ModeRNA dose on Wednesday! Only about six more weeks of having to worry about taking anti-ICU-bound, life-saving measures. I know, it may still be contagious even if I’m safe from it, so I’ll still wear the simple masks that keep any droplets from coughs, sneezes, or angry shouting going very far.

    Good for you Pope. We also have jab no. 1 appointments set up on the same day as you. I learned of the benefits of a properly worn N95 while working on cleaning out a moldy old boat’s cabin. With the mask off, the mold fumes just about knocked me out as I have a sensitivity. With the mask on I couldn’t even detect it. Those flimsy surgical masks are better than nothing, I suppose. I used one of those ‘N99’ full face respirators as well when mixing concrete, but they do labor the breathe a bit more than the N95.

    #36879

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    N95 while working on cleaning out a moldy old boat’s cabin

    In my research I learned that mold can also raise CO2 and other gases (known as TVOCs). The CO2 I don’t worry about and I detest and resist the meter makers using scare tactics to sell CO2 sensing. I think TVOCs still aren’t much to worry about from molds… guess I’m just showing off details I’ve learned. It’s the long term exposures that matter the most. I happen to have high TVOCs in my apartment, and I have to figure out which gas(es) exactly are making my meters peg — I have two meters now but one’s on loan to a neighbor, and possibly as interesting is the CO2 level that can go up triple the normal atmospheric ambience of about 400 ppm. I’m still not worried about the CO2, but it implies (to me) some kind of fermentation that might also cause the TVOC(s). This is only a recent development, maybe I didn’t adequately clean up spilt beverage of some kind. (I’m really clumsy these days.)

    One trick I learned was how to make the TVOC peg right after using isopropyl alcohol disinfectant on my hands. I mean it pegs all the way across the room within a minute, and stays high for 20 minutes! But the PM 2.5 particles never go high until I’m cooking in the kitchen. Anyway, if you ever want to test TVOC on a meter, just pull out the hand sanitizer. Years ago when my brother had to deal with mold at home, I sent him a meter, and he had to buy a pack of cigarettes to light one up to test its particle sensor. (Dang, I should have recommended he try blowing another kind of smoke that he’s more familiar with.)

    #36880

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Pope is going bannanies.

    #36888

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Pope,

    As long as we’re still short on vaccine, Herd Immunity works almost the same whether I take a dose or someone else gets it. I say “almost” because there’s a trade-off wrt which risks one is most interested in reducing. E.g. either reduce the rate of transmission in a typically highly social (or behaviorally careless) demographic, or reduce the chances of the less healthy having to go to hospital or ICU. It’s like a trade-off between fighting fast moving grass fires vs instead making a fire break around the forest that’s downwind. (Forgive me if that’s a weak analogy… I’ve tried to think of a better one to help other complainers understand the complexity and necessary arbitrariness of these kinds of zero-sum tradeoffs.)

    Yet another reason I say any set of ethics should include “learn to make lifeboats” and “make and keep spares.”  Takes the zero-sum out of things.

    Not interested in responding to your Whataboutist paragraph.

    There was no Whataboutism there, (especially considering the origin of Whataboutism.)

    I’m not distracting from pre-existing woo by posting the story on “vaccine guilt.”  I’m saying that both exist and are both dangerous nonsense.

    But about empathy. My “mask tech” is leakproof, HEPA level, including an awesome home-made, full-face respirator that reduces AQI 200 level air down to zero. Back during our 2017 fires when people either left town or stayed indoors for days, in a city normally busy with 1/4 million people within about ten square miles, I walked downtown with my full-face (snorkel-mask with HEPA vacuum cleaner filter mounted on a milk jug with a CPAP hose) respirator, took the parking lot elevator up to the top at the 5th level, and saw totally empty streets, for as far as I could see… well okay, maybe less than a half-mile through the smoke and haze.

    Impressive.  The most elaborate mask I’ve seen so far in this pandemic was when a guy came into the store with a black rubber mask certified for Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical Warfare! (NBC *🎶Doom!-Dooooom!-Doom!🎶*)   The two filters were thick, multi-layered, charcoal-based ones that he said cost $200 each!

    Most likely, this is serious overkill just for a store, but it was fascinating to behold!  I’m glad the man was ready for whatever.

    (So, you like MSN, or you picked that story because it proves that Stupid exists?)

    I’m eclectic on news sources.  I like to get it from several sources to confirm that a new phenomenon like “vaccine guilt” isn’t a one-and-done thing or perhaps a media prank.  Yep, stupid does indeed exist.

    Oh, by the way, congrats on getting the vax.  Here lately, employees calling in stimulused has kept me brimming with overtime, but now that I have a little breather, I’m scheduling my first shot (or only? depending on what’s offered.)  Not especially concerned about the order, as I’ve stayed healthy this whole time and I can wait, but I do hope for an abundance of vax supply and no more waste, so we can all eventually get to a normal and improving life.

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Brevity and grammar
    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Addendum of regards
    #36898

    Autumn
    Participant

    There was no Whataboutism there, (especially considering the origin of Whataboutism.) I’m not distracting from pre-existing woo by posting the story on “vaccine guilt.”  I’m saying that both exist and are both dangerous nonsense.

    That’s not how whataboutism works. Obviously you wouldn’t be trying to shift focus from the very claim you yourself are making with ‘What about..?’ diversions.

    The person who wrote that article raised a concern. You made diminutive comparisons in the form of “What about [irrelevant tangents]?” It’s difficult to see that as something other than whataboutism.

    #36900

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Kristina,

    The definition of Whataboutism clearly shows that none of that applies to what I am saying:

    Whataboutism–Wikipedia

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

    I’m not arguing that “vaccine guilt” is hypocritical, as “Whataboutism” would.  I am arguing that “vaccine guilt” is silly and would be dangerous if it keeps people from wanting vaccination.

    Also, I contend that the vaccinated deserve no guilt but praise and those who spread the disease and hold back the treatment and vaccination do deserve guilt.  Totally different from the “Whataboutism” fallacy, even if the words “what about” were used.

     

    #36901

    Autumn
    Participant

    Totally different from the “Whataboutism” fallacy, even if the words “what about” were used.

    Person A: X is an issue it makes sense to feel guilty about.
    Person B: How can can you highlight X as an issue worthy of guilt when Y and Z are worse?

    That is, approximately, the formulation you are being criticized because one of two things is very likely true:

    1) You’ve established a fallacious connection between X, and Y and Z. Guilt over X is not valid or rational because guilt over Y and Z has not been expressed. That is whataboutism.

    2) You’ve introduced irrelevant considerations to colour the conversation such that X is diminished next to Y and Z. While this isn’t, strictly speaking, a fallacy, it is irrational in this case.

    If it isn’t one of those two scenarios, then it is a bizarre tangent. Frankly, that strains credibility when you ended with “Don’t all of these deserve guilt more than someone saving themselves and others through vaccination?” Who said they didn’t? Who? It’s not even implied.

     

    #36905

    Davis
    Moderator

    Vaccine guilt is totally reasonable and understandable in essence. I have friends who qualify for vaccines because they super occasionally work with people at a medium risk. Meanwhile there are senior citizens who are still waiting for vaccines. My friends have gotten the vaccines either because it is mandatory or not taking it now would mean waiting even longer than they would have to otherwise (and create more paperwork for the government). They still feel bad that they are getting something when they only sort of technically deserve it when others truly need it more. This is an entirely reasonable position. Of course…it would not be reasonable if they agonise over it…or if it stops them from getting it. But going

    “mmm…I’m reluctantly taking it now instead of later…too bad others who need it more aren’t getting it”

    is not a silly way to feel. That is a fairly human and healthy way to react if you live in a society where you give the slightest shit about others.

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