Moral quandary re: Ukraine war

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This topic contains 44 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  TheEncogitationer 4 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #43779

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Robert, Nazi Germany is simply inapposite as precedent for the Ukraine. Sure there are parallels but they are not probative.

    Where to start? The lead-up to German aggression was in the Spanish Civil war. From 1936 to 1939 Germany adumbrated its future plans. Weapons and tactics were introduced knowingly as a way to prepare for its future conquests and annihilation of Jews in greater Europe and Russia.

    There was a sentiment in Germany that the Versaille Treaty was unnecessarily punitive. Retaliation and Germany finding its rightful ascendancy with its Aryan superiority was present. Politically Germany had gone from a democracy to a dictatorship with wild and extreme ultranationalism. “We’ll get those motherfuckers. Germany uber alles.” The furor for the fuhrer and political/cultural zeitgeist reached a fevered level that was never seen. The Hitler Youth initially a voluntary group was volunteered for almost completely. The crystal night and terror towards Jews before the holocaust-it was millions of German citizens who were energized to take over the world. Also and significantly there were no nucs at the start of the war so the idea of mutually assured destruction-no.

    If you credit Reg’ recently linked article it is pretty clear the aspirations of Hitler and Putin are not the same. The army is not the same. Germans were wild with bloodlust and many of the Russian soldiers do/did not have their heart in it.

    #43780

    Unseen
    Participant

    Meanwhile if you see a bright flash, just “duck and cover”.

    You do realize that NYC now has a public service message about how to survive a nuclear strike?

    The possibility of WW3 is no joke.

    Elsewhere, I remember you suggesting that Putin is losing support. Well, that day seems to be well off in the speculative future:

    A survey conducted in late May by Russia’s only remaining independent pollster, the Levada Center, found that 77% of Russians currently back the war. This represented a slight increase on the corresponding figure for April, when 74% of respondents voiced support for the ongoing invasion.

    There has been considerable speculation over scale of Russian backing for the war in Ukraine, with critics questioning the credibility of numerous government-linked surveys showing strong levels of support. While any attempt to accurately gauge opinion in a dictatorship is notoriously difficult, the Levada Center’s recent data is likely to be the most legitimate available indication of public feeling toward the war.

    While younger Russians were less likely to back the invasion, the survey identified comfortable majorities in favor of the war among every single age group. Sixty percent of 18-24 year old respondents voiced their support, rising to eighty three percent of those aged over 55. Nor is there much expectation of a quick victory, with almost half respondents (44%) predicting that the war would last for at least a further six months.

    These figures are bad news for anyone hoping to see a domestic backlash within Russia as the war in Ukraine drags on and the costs become increasingly apparent to ordinary Russians. On the contrary, the slight rise in support since April suggests that a majority of Russians have accepted today’s wartime conditions as the new normal and are largely supportive of the Kremlin’s official narrative. (source)

    #43781

    Unseen
    Participant

    Isn’t it great when you can fight a proxy war and all you have to deal with is record inflation at home while all the dying is done by Ukrainians and Russians and people starving in Third World countries? We’ll see how enthusiastic the European NATO countries are for the war in the winter if they have to get through it without Russian fossil fuels.

    #43782

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Unseen’s words:

    Isn’t it great when you can fight a proxy war and all you have to deal with is record inflation at home while all the dying is done by Ukrainians and Russians and people starving in Third World countries?

    Yeah it is unreal how people can be cavalier as to nuclear war. And as to Black and Brown peoples in 3rd world countries we don’t care. We don’t intervene to end genocides. We don’t care that they are fucked by our foreign policy. It is just fallout for people who do not count. And we are building a world divided that is less apt to cooperate in addressing climate change. And man it is getting HOT!

    #43783

    Unseen
    Participant

    Unseen’s words: Isn’t it great when you can fight a proxy war and all you have to deal with is record inflation at home while all the dying is done by Ukrainians and Russians and people starving in Third World countries? Yeah it is unreal how people can be cavalier as to nuclear war. And as to Black and Brown peoples in 3rd world countries we don’t care. We don’t intervene to end genocides. We don’t care that they are fucked by our foreign policy. It is just fallout for people who do not count. And we are building a world divided that is less apt to cooperate in addressing climate change. And man it is getting HOT!

    It’s easy to support Ukraine if you use tunnel vision to consider only Ukraine, Russia, and the NATO countries. A whole chicken going up $2 or $3 for me at the market is one thing, but people in Africa can only dream about having a chicken. Apparently, from the U.S. government’s point of view, it’s their job to starve and die to help us win the proxy war in Ukraine without any American bloodshed.

    There you have one facet of the moral quandary.

    #43789

    _Robert_
    Participant

    If you credit Reg’ recently linked article it is pretty clear the aspirations of Hitler and Putin are not the same. The army is not the same. Germans were wild with bloodlust and many of the Russian soldiers do/did not have their heart in it.

    The hearts of poor Russian soldiers are the last things that matter to Putin and the opinion of a Russian apologist is not exactly a good source. People that know him personally have a very different opinion including some Russian oligarchs.

    Sure, the geo-political atmosphere is a global wave of nationalism. The US corporate psuedo-democracy just facilitated Putin’s army of meme-bots to influence our elections. He was all over Brexit as well. Feeling pretty good about himself, hoodwinking our “elected” moron Trump.

    OK, Putin can do whatever he wants because of the nuke-bluffing. Oh and the sudden embracing the Russian Orthodox Church just as Hitler did with the Lutherans. But he will just stop at Ukraine, right? Afterall, Bush looked into his soul and it was all good. According to you all I guess Ukrainians are really fighting and dying because they are all worried about the US and the West. It had nothing to do with them wanting to control their own destiny. They really want to be subjugated by Russia yet once again so we should just set them free of their obligations to us by stopping our support.

     

    #43791

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Robert was there even an effort to effectuate a diplomatic solution? If it is true there is a part of former Russia in Ukraine that is predominantly Russian/Russian language and identifies more with Russia than Ukraine then doesn’t it make sense to cede that territory, to have both nations cooperate to have immigration and emigration in accordance with sympathy and identification?

    If you do that and an agreement is made ya inform Putin that additional territorial expansion outside of Ukraine will be met with the mother of all wars and not by proxy.

    #43792

    _Robert_
    Participant

    A civil war is one thing, invasion across a border is another. There are large parts of Russia proper where people want out. Like Chechnya. That is Russia’s problem.

    Russia has been grabbing parts of the independent country of Georgia for years. Russia is also claiming 1.2 million square kilometers (over 463,000 square miles) of the Arctic sea shelf. Then Crimea and then he waited, and no one really did anything. Then Eastern Ukraine and then the attempt at Kyiv. Any deal will be temporary. You really trust KGB agents?

    The definition of a proxy war…a war instigated by a major power which does not itself become involved. The West did not instigate or want this war. Ukraine was not gonna be allowed into NATO in Putin’s lifetime. This is all about Putin’s Peter the Great complex and  trying to make Russia great again with it’s GDP = Italy, despite all the natural resources.

    #43793

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Ukrainians are not ready to give away land for the sake of peace ‒ survey | Ukrayinska Pravda

    https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/07/1/7355764/

    #43796

    Unseen
    Participant

    This war is a man made war made by Western powers who broke their agreement to disband NATO once the Communist period in Russia ended along with the Warsaw Pact. But it clung on, surrounding Russia with hostile and well-armed countries. Imagine the U.S. in a similar situation. Now, it seems NATO, far from pulling in its horns, will be expanding its membership and drawing in Norway and Finland, two formerly neutral countries.

    Contrary to what some people think, NATO didn’t agree to disband when Gorbachev turned out the Communist lights. Even he says there was no such agreement.

    Still, arguably, this conflict is the result of NATO not disbanding but expanding instead, giving Putin a reason to try to build a buffer zone.

    Not disbanding NATO and the creation of Israel seem to be proving to be the two biggest peace-threatening mistakes the West has made.

    #43800

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Reg,

    To Sergey Karaganov, I repeat General McAuliffe’s word in Karaganov’s own tongue:

    “Orekhi!”

    The mere fact that he speaks of a “civilization of civilizations” indicates that somebody is a collector.

    #43801

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    With exception to groups of chimps and apes, (the only examples I can think of off the top of my head,) all wars are man-made.

    One can certainly argue that NATO’s usefulness has expired and that multinational organizations like NATO and EU can’t do anything better than European nations can do separately or by individual treaties. Indeed, NATO is a military without a single government and EU is a government without a military.

    All that said, none this changes the fact that Putin’s actions are his responsibility. Even if NATO was a threat, that wouldn’t justify Putin’s slaughter of Ukrainian civilians.

    As for Israel, if that nation never existed, Arab tribesmen would still be fighting each other over sheep-grazing turf and Muslims would still be fighting over who was to run the Caliphate. Israel is hardly the enemy of peace in the Middle East and Citizens of all creeds and origins manage to keep things together. (Pop-Up Video Factoid: Only 39 percent of Israelis identify as devoutly religious.)

    #43802

    _Robert_
    Participant

    NATO has new purpose now that Russia’s bonehead leader has revealed his ambitions and doesn’t want to join in with the rest of civilized world.  He had his chance to join, and he doesn’t get to decide what alliances other countries make. Former Soviet Bloc countries of Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary made the right choice. Standardization of NATO arms and ammo are a big deal logistically. Joint training exercises as well.

    We are seeing how much better NATO equipment and surveillance data is even in the hands of new-bee Ukrainians. All the ‘talk-up’ about Russian equipment is just the US miliary-industrial complex justifying their budget.

    It is unfortunate there are still so many dictators in power. I really want to see our ex-dictator behind bars especially since he thinks he is above the law.

    #43804

    Unseen
    Participant

    All that said, none this changes the fact that Putin’s actions are his responsibility. Even if NATO was a threat, that wouldn’t justify Putin’s slaughter of Ukrainian civilians.

    Does the United States kill civilians. We’ve done it directly in Yemen and are assisting our “friends” the Saudis do it in Yemen. We dropped two atomic bombs killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Japanese civilians. We use the old “If you wanna make an omelet” (collateral damage) defense whenever we wage war, which you seem to think is not available to Putin(?). Why not? Russian speakers and Russian ethnics have been terribly mistreated in especially the Eastern portion of Ukraine by militant pro-Nazi militias tolerated by Kyiv.

    Give me a break!

    As for Israel, if that nation never existed, Arab tribesmen would still be fighting each other over sheep-grazing turf and Muslims would still be fighting over who was to run the Caliphate. Israel is hardly the enemy of peace in the Middle East and Citizens of all creeds and origins manage to keep things together. (Pop-Up Video Factoid: Only 39 percent of Israelis identify as devoutly religious.)

    Are you so ignorant of Middle Eastern political realities that you don’t understand that Israel commits atrocities on Palestinian civilians with great regularity? Civilians many of whom have no particular love of Hamas and want simply to live peaceful lives with their Jewish neighbors.

    #43806

    _Robert_
    Participant

    The US has certainly caused untold suffering when meddling in other countries. Over and over again. The US barely has a leg to stand on and is no longer a viable model as a representative democracy or as having a fair election system. We (and Belarus whose election was overthrown by Putin for his lapdog) can thank clever half-truth Russian propaganda for lots of that.

    There is only one point that perhaps sheds a slightly better light on the US. The ultimate goal of US intervention is always to keep commerce going. To be the world’s mall cop. Communism is bad for business. Keep the ships moving, the Coca-Cola ™ and oil flowing. The US is basically corporation driven. It’s not been on land grab missions (since the Mexican war) or genocidal rampages like we see from Russia right now. Still, this is no consolation for a dead Iraqi.

     

     

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