Moral quandary re: Ukraine war

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This topic contains 44 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  TheEncogitationer 2 weeks, 4 days ago.

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  • #43758

    Unseen
    Participant

    I think it’s becoming clear that, short of WW3, Putin will succeed in taking a substantial part of Eastern Ukraine and possibly the entire country. Sanctions have, for the most part, failed, and have hurt the entire world far more than Putin, for NATO’s efforts and Putin’s retaliations have played a large role in the inflation that’s swept the world and is hurting those in poor countries far more than those in the West.

    NATO told Russia that it will phase out their Russian oil and natural gas purchases and it now appears Russia’s response is Why wait? We’ll cut you off now. Putin has cut deals with Iran and China to buy Russia’s production. The Ruble has gained in value against the US Dollar and the Euro.

    As more effective weapons are given to Ukraine, Russia often simply destroys them wasting the billions of freshly minted dollars used to buy them.

    In the meantime, Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe (second only to Russia, LOL) and since there’s almost no accounting of the tens of billions of dollars in military hardware and supplies, it’s likely a lot of it is ending up on the black market to line the pockets of Ukrainian oligarchs. In the meantime, Zelenskyy has clamped down on Ukrainian news sources and has fired several of his ministers for “treason.” If Putin is a dictator, so is Zelenskyy.

    Here’s the question: Is this war worth it? Worth the cost in Ukrainian and Russian lives? Worth risking WW3 for? I have to wonder.

    #43760

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Russia invaded Ukraine to gain population into the “Federation” to solve Putin’s huge demographics problem and super low birth rate. I saw an article about how Russia is fast headed from 9th in population to 17th by 2050. He made it worse, LOL. Taking eastern Ukraine is insignificant, just a false flag. They tried to take Kyiv, but they fucked that up royally. Russia has already lost this war. I am sure Estonia, Finland and other Baltic states are in his plan for USSR V2, but that seems far-fetched as the outnumbered Ukrainians are kicking the shit out of those morons.

    #43762

    Unseen
    Participant

     

    #43763

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Unseen, i thought it was a bad decision. As things have played out the costs far outweigh whatever advantage has been garnered. Wait, what advantage?

    When China invades Taiwan we will have learned nothing.

    #43764

    Unseen
    Participant

    Russia invaded Ukraine to gain population into the “Federation” to solve Putin’s huge demographics problem and super low birth rate. I saw an article about how Russia is fast headed from 9th in population to 17th by 2050. He made it worse, LOL. Taking eastern Ukraine is insignificant, just a false flag. They tried to take Kyiv, but they fucked that up royally. Russia has already lost this war. I am sure Estonia, Finland and other Baltic states are in his plan for USSR V2, but that seems far-fetched as the outnumbered Ukrainians are kicking the shit out of those morons.

    Russia started out ham handed but those days are over. In response, the West/NATO keeps upping the ante with more sophisticated (and expensive) weaponry. Russia can respond. Not only do they have nukes and  chem/bio weapons, they also have hyperbaric (air fuel) weapons and hypersonic missiles.

    Noam Chomsky is no dumbbell:

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  Unseen.
    #43766

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Another negative probability as a result of the Ukraine is failure to cooperate to combat climate change. I understand it is getting a bit steamy in Europe. Parts of the USA are not exactly cool either. Texas forecast day after day after day over 100 farenheit. On the other hand i am not sure how much cooperation was in the offing…

    #43767

    jakelafort
    Participant

    If we have not succumbed to nuclear annhilation or descended into chaos fortunes will be made by people who invested in real estate in northern and especially mountainous areas.

    #43768

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Why would anyone (but a moron) believe anything that comes out of the Kremlin? If the US and company keeps supplying modern long-range gear, Russia’s Soviet-era army could be totally chased out of Ukraine within a few years. Putin the election meddler is probably looking to get out of this thing with some sort of win so he can stay in power. But Kyiv wants him gone. Poland and Finland want him gone. The Brits claim the asshole murders his enemies on British soil. They all know what’s coming next. Xi and Taiwan are watching. Meanwhile if you see a bright flash, just “duck and cover”.

    #43769

    _Robert_
    Participant

    #43770

    jakelafort
    Participant

    That is funny. Neville Chamberlain was the first thing i thought about when i was pondering whether it was wise to support Ukraine. I don’t think the logic applies to the current conflict.

    #43771

    jakelafort
    Participant

    There is a greater question than Ukraine.

    I am super pessimistic about our prospects. I think most of us here do not expect civilization to last centuries. Is there any way to reverse the march of folly?

    How do we oppose or prevent dictators. How do we oppose or prevent obscene wealth in the hands of a few at the cost of the many? How do we act in unison and cooperate to address urgent and existential crises? etc..

    #43772

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    In the words–er–word, of 101st Airborne General Anthony McAuliffe at The Battle of the Bulge:

    “Nuts!”

    Inflation is caused by more money chasing less goods and that started with the U.S. Government’s COVID-19 “stimulus” checks first with The Donald, then ramped up more with Biden.

    And the goods got even less as fewer people went work to make and transport goods and as the cost of petroleum went up with everything else, added by Biden stopping the petroleum production and added by Putin’s squeeze.

    We can address the inflation problem by stopping the printing presses at The Fed and pegging the Dollar back to Gold. We can solve the fewer goods and one-up Putin at the same time by re-releasing petroleum production and the production of everything else.

    With our petroleum production freed again, we can sell petroleum to Ukraine ane Europe, as well as sell them their own horizontal drilling tech so they can produce for themselves.

    As for Russia’s War in Ukraine, Putin and the Putineers are destined only for for more loss of blood and treasure, even as they don’t want to stop at the Donbass and no further. They either stop and retreat or burn themselves out, as is the fate of all empires.

    Yes, Zelenskyy’s conscription and suppression of press freedom and dissenting parties are all wrong too and should be addressed by his now newly-armed Citizens. Zelenskyy released a wonderful genie when he gave away arms to his Citizenry and he’ll recall the weapons only at his peril.

    And fret not, this isn’t guaranteed to go nuclear and global. Russia, Red China, and North Korea all had troops helping North Vietnam, Pathet Lao, the Khmer Rouge, and the Viet Cong in Southeast Asia and our troops may have been within breathing distance from some in those jungles at night. Despite this, it never went nuclear. It doesn’t have to in Ukraine either if Ukrainians stand tough and if the U.S. and the West use our wealth in lieu of troops as leverage.

    One things for sure, if we let Putin win out of fear, here’s the kind of Dark Age thinking that will prevail:

    Russia engaged in ‘holy war’ against army of ‘the Antichrist’: Chechen forces commander
    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/foreign/russia-holy-war-against-army-antichrist-chechen-forces-commander

    Jordan Peterson Says Russian Invasion of Ukraine Fueled By ‘Degenerate’ West’s Culture Wars

    Jordan Peterson Says Russian Invasion of Ukraine Fueled by ‘Degenerate’ West’s Culture Wars

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: I went back to the smartphone and made spelling boo-boos
    #43774

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers,

    Yep, Ol’ Lobsterman needs some sweet potatoes and a banana split real bad to get Potassium and Magnesium for sanity, as a supplement his Beef-And-Booze Diet. Does good things for the Man Business too. 🍌 😁

    Here’s another funny story from the battlefront. Evidently Ukrainians have The Super Soldier Formula and Vita-Rays like World War II greatest Marvel Comic Hero Captain America 😁 :

    Russia Says It’s Losing Because Ukraine Has Experimental Mutant Troops Created in Secret Biolabs
    Allison Quinn
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/russia-says-its-losing-because-ukraine-has-experimental-mutant-troops-created-in-secret-biolabss

    #43775

    Russia believes it cannot lose the war in Ukraine.

    #43777

    _Robert_
    Participant

    That is funny. Neville Chamberlain was the first thing i thought about when i was pondering whether it was wise to support Ukraine. I don’t think the logic applies to the current conflict.

    Russia signed a deal and promised not to invade Ukraine but did anyways. Just like Nazi Germany to Russia. Putin declared himself king for life, just like Hitler. Putin attacked countries because they had Russian speaking citizens, just like Hitler. Hitler’s goal was to be dictator to a 1000-year Reich to be created by war, invasion and bombing civilians. Putin’s goal by his own words is to be “Peter the Great” of a new Russian Federation to be achieved by killing civilians and sacrificing his unfortunate Putler youth. It just can’t be any clearer. Hitler sought out other repressive leaders to join in his quest for domination. I see Iran’s Ayatollah is gonna be Putin’s Mussolini, LOL.

    Any deal with Putin is worth absolutely nothing. He knows Russia is headed down the toilet and made his move when he perceived the US/NATO to be weak and gas prices high.

    Every time a war bogs down, the apologists for the aggressors come out of the woodwork. They are always wrong.

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