Moral quandary re: Ukraine war

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This topic contains 44 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  TheEncogitationer 4 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #43812

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    Does the United States kill civilians. We’ve done it directly in Yemen and are assisting our “friends” the Saudis do it in Yemen. We dropped two atomic bombs killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Japanese civilians. We use the old “If you wanna make an omelet” (collateral damage) defense whenever we wage war, which you seem to think is not available to Putin(?). Why not? Russian speakers and Russian ethnics have been terribly mistreated in especially the Eastern portion of Ukraine by militant pro-Nazi militias tolerated by Kyiv.

    If this were a thread on the morality, ethics, and law of war in general, then yes, I would condemn U.S.Government deliberate targeting of civilians, as well as deliberate targeting of civilians by anybody. However, this thread is supposed to be about Russia’s war in Ukraine. Hence, in this context, dragging in U.S. or Israeli or anybody else’s real or imputed atrocities is a Tu Quoque (“You”re Another”) Fallacy and a literal Cold War Era What-About-ism Fallacy 2.0.

    As for Ukraine’s Russians, they too are fighting against Putin and the Putineers because they know what his regime would mean for their freedom. And the Azov Battalion could never claim that Ukraine needs them if Ukraine had a ubiquitous armed citizenry with a legally-recognized individual right to keep and bear arms prior to Zekenskyy’s gun give-away. An armed citizenry could uphold civil liberties, stave off would-be tyrants, and keep corruption out of government.

    Are you so ignorant of Middle Eastern political realities that you don’t understand that Israel commits atrocities on Palestinian civilians with great regularity? Civilians many of whom have no particular love of Hamas and want simply to live peaceful lives with their Jewish neighbors.

    Arabs in Israel and in the West Bank have increased in number since the establishment of Israel and Arab Israelis are better off than citizens in other Arab nations. That is not typically how oppression, Apartheid, and genocide operate.

    And the Palestinian Authority (PA) under both Fatah and Hamas located their weapons among civilian schools, hospitals, and neighborhoods, placing civilians at risk both when firing weapons and when Israel retaliates. Under the laws of war, that puts the PA at fault for Arab civilian deaths.

    #43813

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Anti-American Russian Meme/BOT factory

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency

    I have little doubt that so many Americans and their vote seeking Republican scum politicians and phony liberals have been immeasurably influenced by Putin’s Half-Truth Meme army that uses our freedoms against us. I personally have so many friends and acquaintances who spend a good deal of time on Facebook/Twitter/Fox/Youtube. It’s how they get their news.  I know an older couple who were nice people before all of this. Now they repost hate and vile constantly. They really believe everything the Russian trolls can manufacture that seems “patriotic” to them. Their feeds keep them 100% insulated from anything real and it would be fake news to them anyways. No idea about the facts brought forth from the Jan 6 investigations. Putin was glued to his TV set on Jan 6. Loving every minute of it.

    #43817

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Robert you raise a monumental issue.

    How do we come to terms with foreign nations and mega corporations transforming our gullible population into marionettes? No emphasis in our culture on thinking for oneself. Churches, shit schools, shit parents, shit teachers, bullshit patriotism, shit for brains..

    Additionally cultural homage to a false notion of what free speech is and how any limitations are unreasonable and undergirded by a rationale that is demonstrably false-that the free market of ideas will cause good ideas to emerge and bad to submerge.

    #43818

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Robert,

    You say “Coca-Cola” and “oil” like they are bad things, just like that video of Unseen’s one time said that the S &. P 500 was a bad thing, even though mutual funds save the investor the intensive, ever-shifting labor of researching companies and stocks.

    It must be nice to be so privileged, since everyone else is looking for more Coke on the shelves and for more and cheaper petroleum products.

    Perhaps if the U.S. got back into producing things like this and used the power of trade, we’d have the edge and moral suasion over the Putin’s, Xis, Ayatollahs, and Sheikhs without sending conscripted blood and taxed treasure abroad.

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: I put 'shiting' when I meant 'shifting'. Still, hard work is shitty, so I wasn't far off. ;)
    #43820

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Robert you raise a monumental issue. How do we come to terms with foreign nations and mega corporations transforming our gullible population into marionettes? No emphasis in our culture on thinking for oneself. Churches, shit schools, shit parents, shit teachers, bullshit patriotism, shit for brains.. Additionally cultural homage to a false notion of what free speech is and how any limitations are unreasonable and undergirded by a rationale that is demonstrably false-that the free market of ideas will cause good ideas to emerge and bad to submerge.

    That’s right Jake, it is so much easier to be a flag waving, scripture thumping, Facebook addicted ideolog than to think for yourself. As the American dream was sold from under their feet, I believe that so many Americans have become so cynical of all institutions and at the same time too lazy or poorly educated to find out the truth. I don’t want censorship, but a simple electronic origin stamp e.g. (Ru), (Iran) on a post would help identify it as fake/bot. I remember the days when a phone call was traceable, and a letter could be returned to sender LOL.

    #43821

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Robert, You say “Coca-Cola” and “oil” like they are bad things, just like that video of Unseen’s one time said that the S &. P 500 was a bad thing, even though mutual funds save the investor the intensive, ever-shifting labor of researching companies and stocks. It must be nice to be so privileged, since everyone else is looking for more Coke on the shelves and for more and cheaper petroleum products. Perhaps if the U.S. got back into producing things like this and used the power of trade, we’d have the edge and moral suasion over the Putin’s, Xis, Ayatollahs, and Sheikhs without sending conscripted blood and taxed treasure abroad.

    I don’t think anybody should be drinking carbonated sugar water, but I made about $1.5 million over the last few years in the stock market, much of it by investing in green energy. Now I am investing in advanced cancer therapeutics/gene therapy innovators. Big oil is so 70’s and I welcome its future reduced importance. Coke is for kids. It just ruins good whiskey.

    #43822

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Robert, that is a great bet-wagering on the coming medical revolution.

    #43823

    Now I am investing in advanced cancer therapeutics/gene therapy innovators.

    These are exactly the two biggest areas of medical innovation to be in. If you read the words “biology” and “nanotechnology” in the same paragraph then dig deeper and get your funds invested.

    #43824

    jakelafort
    Participant

    The word nanotechnology came to mind. It is a brave new world we are about to destroy.

    Robert if you don’t mind which funds or equities are you in?

    #43825

    _Robert_
    Participant

    The word nanotechnology came to mind. It is a brave new world we are about to destroy. Robert if you don’t mind which funds or equities are you in?

    I went in even on NTLA, EDIT, CRSP, CRBU, and BEAM. My sweetheart is an RN and really gets excited about stem cell research! There are some ETFs that cover the sector, so maybe I’ll convert over at some point when I get time to look them over. Some have already made pretty big moves, but it is an industry that is really just getting started. There are other promising technologies as Reg suggests. Less than 1% of my portfolio for now because I starting to allocate more to fixed income as bonds are looking much better and egads, my life expectancy ain’t all that long anymore. Also, I will have SS, pensions and medicare kicking in within 3 years if the country survives. If rates go up a few more points I will be tempted to just buy some MYGAs (CD annuities), Bonds and CDs and pretty much call it a day.

    #43833

    Unseen
    Participant

    America has an estimated 553,000 homeless people living on the streets, in shelters or abandoned properties, on friends’ couches, etc. Meanwhile, as of May 20 (getting close to 2 months ago) the U.S. government had sent $54,000,000,000 (billion) to Ukraine to make Putin’s Ukraine land grab fail or at least be really really inconvenient. So, that was nearly two months ago and is only the aid we’re aware of. The government has its ways of spending money off the books.

    Still, taking the official numbers above, the U.S. government has spent an amount equivalent to $97,000 for every homeless American. It could solve the homeless crisis, if it wanted to. Instead, attempting to make life inconvenient for Putin is more important. Do you agree?

    What is done with the  money (in the form of military supplies, mostly) is unknown. Some of it ends up on the battlefield but given that Ukraine’s leadership, including Zelensky, are known to be corrupt, presumably a lot of it is sold to the weapons black market.

    NPR finally takes note:

    Corruption concerns involving Ukraine are revived as the war with Russia drags on

    #43858

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Rovert,

    Anything medical is a very promising investment. (And with a stem cell-grown perpetually-regrowing pancreas, you wouldn’t need to sweat about Coca-Cola.)

    However, when it comes to anything “Green,” you’ll definitely need to do due diligence.

    If this “Green Energy” involves Electric Vehicles made with ultralight plastic made from petroleum, with batteries made from Heavy Metals and acid that are prone to catching fire, that have to be recharged with petroleum-burning power plants and cost more than the vehicle is worth when you have to replace them…

    If “Green Energy” involves windmills that whopper-chopper thousands of birds and make infrasonic vibes that make humans and pets and livestock sick and make it so cool downwind that thermostats turn the house heaters on…

    If “Green Energy” involves acres of solar panels made with poisonous chemicals and heat-intensive processes that block the Sun underneath and take up space more productively used for crops and trees that provide food, paper, and yes, breathe in Carbon Dioxide…

    Then the only thing “Green” about any of that is the paint color and the taxdolllars used to subsidize “Green Energy.”

    For the amount you invested to get $1.5 Million, you could have invested in a real energy source such as petroleum or nuclear, as well as other human needs and got $Tens of Millions. Just sayin’.

    #43859

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Sidenote, withholding oil is effectively used to pressure entire countries. We need longer term energy strategies, asap. This is true not just wrt Putin’s Russia, but to get out from under the thumb of oil rich, autocratic theocracies like Saudi Arabia, as well. Notice in the graph how prices have been increasing for at least a year, giving Putin more leverage.

    [I’ve set the following video to start about 4 minutes in, with about 2-1/2 minutes to watch.]

    #43868

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Robert,

    As Scooby Doo would say: “Rut-Roe!” I meant to spell your name as above and not “Rovert.” Sorry.

    I found an app that makes the keyboard bigger, but the cost of using it was that the app records every keystroke, including phone numbers, credit cards, passwords, etc. To Hell with that Faustian bargain! 😒 👹

    #43890

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    What I favor is not tax-subsidized foreign aid to the Ukrainians, but rather that private individuals, non-profits, and companies shoild be free to send weapons, charity and even volunteer military services to the Ukrainian people. This was done before World War II when U.S. Citizens sent guns to British citizens as well as volunteered for the Abe Lincoln Brigades in the Spanish Civil War.

    As for throwing money at solving the homeless problem, this has been tried many times before. For example, Charlotte, NC subsidized hotels to provide shelter to the homeless. The hotels were then stripped of TVs, appliances, wiring, rebar, piping, even lumber, tile, and sheetrock! 😳

    What’s easily gained is not highly valued. When people have to work for it and earn it, they’re more apt to cherish and preserve it. Habitat For Humanity lives by this and anyone who truely cares for the homeless does as well.

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