Naive to the point of …

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This topic contains 16 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  jakelafort 8 months ago.

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  • #8645

    David Boots
    Participant

    In the last 15 years of so I have come to realise that their is a strong element of naivety running through those of us in the west. It appears to be associated with intelligence and empathetic personalities.

    Unless , as a westerner, you have first hand experience to the contrary we tend to give the benefit of the doubt to people. We just naturally assume that others think like us. Or at least roughly like us. But they do not.

    My own revelation as to my own personal naivety took place in India where I lived for some years a decade or so ago. Indian culture is rigidly hierarchical and if you are white you are at the top of that hierarchy and if you are black you are at the bottom. No amount of skin bleaching cream (which is a huge seller by the way) will save you from this extraordinary system of oppression.

    The indian culture is essentially a duopoly of the hindu and islamic religions. In both of these religions, women are subjugated from an early age. As a woman – and still to this day – you are literally sold when you are married. As any recently married indian woman will tell you they are expected to be their mother-in-laws personal servant.

    But for foreign women or white foreign women they are considered ‘sluts’. And as such they are seen as ‘easy’ targets for rape. And rape – gang rape that is – occurs on a scale not experienced in the west. My first experience of this was in Jaipur where I was approached by a tourist who asked me to pretend I was her husband to help her. She was being harassed and targeted by a group of around 30 local men. I had absolutely no doubt that day and still do not doubt this, that without my strong presence she would have been pack raped.

    In other parts of india – take Goa for instance – packs of local men target women tourists who come for the long beaches and warm weather. Once, in Bangalore my wife and came upon a forlorn looking western tourist women by the side of the road. She had come to india for the experience. By saving money and couchsurfing she had found herself the endless target of men. In one case she was raped by her ‘host’. When I asked her why she would even consider couchsurfing in India, she said had couchsurfed through Europe and not experienced any problems.

    By hindu and islamic standards – even modern hindu educated middle class standards – for a woman to have sex before marriage is unthinkable. And with more than one person shameful. Accordingly western women are viewed because of their clothing and attitudes to sex as available. And none of the admittedly limited cultural prohibitions against rape apply. They really do beleive that white women are ‘asking for it’.

    Religion, according to some, is the basis of all wrong. It is certainly the basis of this cultural divide between the genders and the historical and contemporary basis for the subjugation of women. Few people realise in the west that most hindu women are also expected to ‘cover up’ lest they become targeted themselves.

    #8648

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    That’s patriarchy in the raw.  Treating females as property, and society’s and individuals’ enforcement of strict sexual norms for women.

    Of course we have it in the West too, it’s just more in the past.  Fifty years ago, the picture wasn’t so different here as the one you describe.  Men don’t even have to know about it.

    But this aspect of patriarchy is useless, it has no function beyond pleasing men.

    The prohibition of homosexuality is another aspect of the same system.

    #8653

    Daniel W.
    Participant

    This confirms my general impression about life in India.  People in the West often completely forget about Hinduism, which is as oppressive and supportive of subjugation of underclass people, as any Abrahamic religion.  The Hindu caste system is/was brutal, and the repercussions are still ongoing.  Oppression of women and gays is brutal.  And Hinduism is the world’s 3rd largest religion, with 950 million adherents.   Of course, if you are not Hindu in India, chances are you are Muslim, with other religions in the small minority.

    This story reminds me of a naive Italian woman who was hitchhiking across Turkey to promote peace, and was murdered there for it.

    There have been murders of Atheists on the Indian subcontinent as well, although I need to research a little to find out if the culprits were Muslim or Hindu, if known.  Example.

     

     

    #8654

    There is a trail just started in Goa of a man accused of the rape and murder of an Irish woman.

    #8716

    Strega
    Moderator

    It’s funny, in the West over the years, we see Muslims as more violent, and Hindus as more peaceful, but this is a fallacy.  I spent some time in Fiji, for example, where the Hindus are aggressive and the Muslims gentle.  I had always thought that Buddhists were extremely peaceful, and then I learned of the Buddhist aggression in Myanmar.  It seems any cult or clique can mutate into violence and that the triggers are usually geopolitical rather than religious.

    We don’t see atheist aggression, simply because atheists are not a collective.  If they/we were, I’d fully expect there to be exhibits of violence within their ranks too.

    #8717

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Disagree with that take Strega.

    First off theists and cultists explicitly or implicitly reject and abdicate reason. It is not what guides their beliefs.  Instead they are lead.  They are subject to authoritarian leadership.

    And because it is an already degenerate ethos it can produce violence and sickening group-think.  Either a literal interpretation or a metastasis which is not subject to the same kind of reason we would expect from atheists can make a bad thing even worse.

    Plus how often do you hear atheists say…..we aint got nuthin in common except a lack of belief in god(s)…

    #8718

    Strega
    Moderator

    Chicken and egg situation, really Jake.  Does religion cause violence in humans, or are humans inherently violent and this is reflected in group or tribe behaviour?

    #8719

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Violence is in our nature. So is compassion, empathy and reason.

    Will the former or the latter manifest?

    A group of numb-nuts informed by ideology and mob-thinking are more apt to be violent monkeys.  Those who question their government, their culture’s religions and norms are far less likely to engage in mindless group violence.

    #8721

    Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

    Steven Weinberg

    #8722

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Nice quote but it is not exactly accurate.

    It takes a replacement of one’s innate good sense with some form of indoctrination or other…

    In some cases psychosis can cause good to do evil…

    #8729

    David Boots
    Participant
    #8730

    jakelafort
    Participant

    The medical marijuana topical works best…

    #8731

    Daniel W.
    Participant

    Even though I like the quote about religion being a way for otherise good people to do evil things, I think it’s more of a proxy or focus for tribalism.  For example, while Germany’s genocide of Jews was Christian vs. Jew, it was ethnic white European / germanic vs. Jewish (and dark complexion Roma).   In North America, killing every Native American might have been “christian” vs. “heathen”, but again, European vs. Native American.   In the former Yugoslavia, it was also ethnic groups vs. each other, as well as religious.  I suppose it’s nit picking to say it’s ethnic and not religion, and in some places we would be hard put to tell the difference between the groups  – Hutu vs. Tutsi, for example – and especially when religious atrocities happen with people as the same ethnicity, but I think the us/them tribalism is central to dehumanization.  I won’t disagree that religion is a big factor in tribalism, and sometimes the most obvious factor, but I think it’s one among others.

    #8732

    jakelafort
    Participant

    I like Goya’s ..the sleep of reason produces monsters…

    Religion demands of its adherents that reason is abandoned.  Once a person has abandoned reason they are amenable to almost any kind of depraved behavior including wanton violence.

    The authoritarian leadership of cults, religions and governments benefit from  indoctrination in which reason is abandoned. People who would never commit atrocities in their unindoctrinated mental state all of a sudden are capable of some sick shit.

    I maintain that atheists are less likely to do the unthinkable because they are dead set against abandoning reason. It is the stuff of our lives. Further, we see how contentious and critical of our political and religious institutions we are.  I also know that in experiments involving sensory deprivation that atheists are toughest to brainwash.

    Of course those atheists who don’t really have a world view but are simply atheists by default are not included as being resistant to tribalism and all of its horrific manifestations.

    #8733

    I like Goya’s…The Sleep of Reason too.

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