That’s Church yo…

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This topic contains 37 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  jakelafort 2 weeks ago.

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  • #43737

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Robert, Unseen and I have defacated on Jesus’ love. I am sure with a little thought or other contributors additional excrement will be layed on his head. As i live and speak and write here is another thought: If your neighbor is a worthless leach and you have to choose between your neighbor and a stranger where the stranger is a good person in need at least in a vacuum you would have to help the leach possibly at the expense of deserving stranger. Again morality requires judgment and not absolutes or homilys.

    Unseen, how you describe your personality gives a pretty good picture of my own..

    #43738

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    OK, say your neighbor is a Nazi involved in murdering Jews, you gonna love them?

    That’s an extreme case, and the person is either going to be executed or given life imprisonment.  But even Anders Breivik (the Norwegian mass shooter) is given his human rights in prison.  That’s the same formula as “love your neighbour as yourself” or “the maximum benefit and minimum harm available.”

    #43739

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Simon, how is that an extreme case? I can give you example after example in which neighbors will turn in neighbors or murder neighbors and it is the rule as opposed to the exception. That Jesus moral instruction is garbage. How is it that humans can not admit when they are wrong. i don’t mean to pick on you but it is frustrating.

    #43740

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Simon, i agree a cliche is not necessarily bad but it is not necessary as moral advice if it is THAT well known.

    Good advice is good advice, wherever it comes from.  The basics need to be stated, just as in mathematics.

    The love your neighbor as yourself is good advice to encourage exploitative behavior. Let some kniving psychopath know through your good nature that you are an easy mark and see the behavior doubled. How one treats one’s neighbor REQUIRES judgment, not hard and fast disingenous BS.

    Let’s take a hypothetical example.  My neighbour is a drug dealer who wants to take over my house and threatens to stab me if I say no.  What is going to give the best long term outcome for me?  I stab him first?  I call in some heavies to sort him out?  Or I try and find a peaceful solution?  Assuming it’s possible, the last option is the best, by the principle of reciprocity.  The “BS” is not hard, fast or disingenuous: it’s flexible enough to fit any situation, and as Jesus is reported to have said, in many ways it’s all someone needs to know, if they don’t forget to love themselves AS WELL AS their neighbour.

    I want to thrive, and I recognise that you do too.  That’s all it’s saying.  It’s a good policy to go through life with.

    #43741

    Simon Paynton
    Participant
    You’re saying that a Jew-murdering Nazi is not extreme?

    I can give you example after example in which neighbors will turn in neighbors or murder neighbors and it is the rule as opposed to the exception.

    You may well be able to provide case after case, but that doesn’t make it the rule.  It’s still the exception.

    Now, Jesus was talking garbage (in a way) when he said “turn the other cheek”.  That really is a “slave mentality” as Nietzsche put it.

    #43742

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Simon says:

    Let’s take a hypothetical example. My neighbour is a drug dealer who wants to take over my house and threatens to stab me if I say no. What is going to give the best long term outcome for me? I stab him first? I call in some heavies to sort him out? Or I try and find a peaceful solution? Assuming it’s possible, the last option is the best, by the principle of reciprocity. The “BS” is not hard, fast or disingenuous: it’s flexible enough to fit any situation, and as Jesus is reported to have said, in many ways it’s all someone needs to know, if they don’t forget to love themselves AS WELL AS their neighbour.

    Placate a bully? Love the drug dealer who wants to take over your house and threatens to stab you if you say no? You’ve begun to use his drugs because that is irrational and destructive. Reciprocity works with people who are kind and rational and have no agenda. Giving license to someone who is trying to exploit you makes no sense. What do you mean it is flexible. There is nothing flexible in that love your neighbor as yourself directive. Not only is it unrealistic and as a practical matter impossible unles you just happen to love that neighbor but any time they are out to use you their exploitation of you is expedited and made easier.

    Simon says: You may well be able to provide case after case, but that doesn’t make it the rule. It’s still the exception.

    True that. However dangerous neighbors are a legit and ever present danger where they exist. When a mindless church goer applies a mindless rule in a mindless way they are liable to be fucked!

    #43743

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Simon, i agree a cliche is not necessarily bad but it is not necessary as moral advice if it is THAT well known.

    Good advice is good advice, wherever it comes from. The basics need to be stated, just as in mathematics.

    The love your neighbor as yourself is good advice to encourage exploitative behavior. Let some kniving psychopath know through your good nature that you are an easy mark and see the behavior doubled. How one treats one’s neighbor REQUIRES judgment, not hard and fast disingenous BS.

    Let’s take a hypothetical example. My neighbour is a drug dealer who wants to take over my house and threatens to stab me if I say no. What is going to give the best long term outcome for me? I stab him first? I call in some heavies to sort him out? Or I try and find a peaceful solution? Assuming it’s possible, the last option is the best, by the principle of reciprocity. The “BS” is not hard, fast or disingenuous: it’s flexible enough to fit any situation, and as Jesus is reported to have said, in many ways it’s all someone needs to know, if they don’t forget to love themselves AS WELL AS their neighbour. I want to thrive, and I recognise that you do too. That’s all it’s saying. It’s a good policy to go through life with.

    You don’t get it. I have doubts that you grew up as a practicing Christian as I did. Looking for a peaceful solution is not the goal. In fact, the worldly outcome is 100% irrelevant. You must really love the drug dealer who wants to kill you or the Nazi next door. Not to make things better but to demonstrate your submission to the lord. I have noticed it is common for people not raised in the tradition to misinterpret the religion. It’s not about “thriving”. It is about suffering to be closer to god.

    #43745

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Placate a bully? Love the drug dealer who wants to take over your house and threatens to stab you if you say no? You’ve begun to use his drugs because that is irrational and destructive. Reciprocity works with people who are kind and rational and have no agenda. Giving license to someone who is trying to exploit you makes no sense.

    I agree, morality is useless against an amoral sociopath such as Putin.  But I assume that we will wish that even Putin is given a fair trial.

    I’m not talking about going easy on people or acting like some kind of idiot who lets people walk all over them.  Just that it’s a good policy in general to recognise that others want to thrive, just as the self does.

    #43746

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    You must really love the drug dealer who wants to kill you or the Nazi next door. Not to make things better but to demonstrate your submission to the lord.

    Yup, that’s why religious thinking is effed sideways.

    I have noticed it is common for people not raised in the tradition to misinterpret the religion. It’s not about “thriving”. It is about suffering to be closer to god.

    I’m looking for commonalities where they exist.  I agree that the primary motivations of religious people (a happy eternity in Heaven) and atheists (a good life) would seem to be different.  But we would hope that for religious people to enjoy their afterlife, they would need to have lived a useful and productive life.

    #43747

    jakelafort
    Participant

    From Robert:

    You don’t get it. I have doubts that you grew up as a practicing Christian as I did. Looking for a peaceful solution is not the goal. In fact, the worldly outcome is 100% irrelevant. You must really love the drug dealer who wants to kill you or the Nazi next door. Not to make things better but to demonstrate your submission to the lord. I have noticed it is common for people not raised in the tradition to misinterpret the religion. It’s not about “thriving”. It is about suffering to be closer to god.

    Obedience. Frozen social order. Mindless obedience. No questioning anything. Know your place. And yes it is really fucked up to be commanded to love a mother fucker neighbor. My only small quibble with your sharp take is that it is not about the best interest of the adherent/theist at all. Closer to god is just a front for replicating more bots to perpetuate the ideology and augment its power.

    #43784

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Bella,

    It is possible to be glad of what you have and use what you have with some creativity as a springboard for better things.

    It certainly worked well for William DeVaughn and radio stations, discos, and record stores all over the nation in 1973 and it provided millions with a happy song to sing, dance, groove, and hob-knob:

    It is possible to admire other people’s good things and use that admiration as a “wish list” to work towards earning and achieving for yourself.

    Mere coveting is not the sin it’s made out to be. Wanting gives goals.

    Rather, it is envy, the hatred of the good for being good, that is fruitless and destructive. When that emotion occurs, step back with some rational thought and remember that when people are free to act, produce, and achieve, life is not a zero-sum game and one person’s gain is not another person’s loss. People vary in what they have, but that can and does change. The poor don’t have to stay poor and the rich can’t rest on laurels and stay that way.

    And nowadays, food trucks can be found at a laundromat or a vacant lot if your city fathers and the crime rates are friendly to them. And if they aren’t friendly to food trucks, you and neighbors certainly have a reason to get together to change that for the better.

    And best of all, all this is possible without a house of worship or a God.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Overcoming autocheck
    #43786

    Unseen
    Participant

    Convenience.

    What sort of news supports your personal point of view and prejudices? You’re sure to fine a channel or network that does the job.

    Likewise…

    We now have convenience Christianity. There’s sure to be a religion or church or preacher where your own deeply-held opnions, prejudices, and/or follies are affirmed for you and inculcated for others.

    #43787

    jakelafort
    Participant

    @unseen, you sad a mouthful with the following.

    We now have convenience Christianity. There’s sure to be a religion or church or preacher where your own deeply-held opnions, prejudices, and/or follies are affirmed for you and inculcated for others.

    Confirmation bias is a bitch even when you are keenly aware of it. How many times have i caught myself reading some author whose opinion reflects my own and then i think wow what a smart muther fucka and probably give too much credence to opinions on other topics by that author. And how good does it feel and affirming to have your own opinion reflected back to you as the fox and cnn viewers must know.

    #43803

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers,

    There is much wisdom here from everybody. I’ve heard that Satanist Anton LaVey had a very street-wise version of the Reciprocity Ethic/Golden Rule: If someone does you a good turn, do them twice a good turn. But if thine enemy smites thee, smash his skull in. 👹😁

    I would somewhat modify this by first offering up a shield for them to break their fist on, saving the deadly force for deadly force.

    Nevertheless, it is true that “Love All, Serve All” makes love cheap.

    Beyond: “Live and let live,” “Hey-hah-yew,” “Please,” “Thank you,” and “excuse me, I’m sorry” if you bump into somebody, in all proper relationships, everything else between human beings has to be earned.

    #43827

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    I just think it’s sad that there’s no place here that you can do that that isn’t church related or religious related. I have said this before… I think that it’s really sad that Community is hard to come by. Community is really hard to come by because it always exists within some kind of a context that has religion tied to it.

    As an ex-socially-challenged human, I’m still in awe of my own built-in need to identify with and communicate with others. Could be age, but I’m increasingly misting or tearing up during some movies where I’m actually feeling for the first time certain connections to the drama or shared feeling of identity. (But I still hate melodrama.)

    But as always, I speculate about human evolutionary times to try to understand why we are the way we are. The two most obviously pertinent traits (to this discussion) we’ve evolved are feelings of identity/belongingness, and a strong urge to communicate with each other in ways that go much deeper than ways among other animals. In “modern” times, after having invented language, then verbal or sung stories, then highly creative and over-intellectualized religious stories (and so on), I think that’s where the “extra” that you’re talking about has come in… as superfluous embellishment, a wide range of fiction, and melodrama. These “extra hooks” now pull almost everyone into views of reality that are embellished and burdened with fiction and melodrama.

    Amplify that in the age of technology with TV shows with large audiences, and amplify again with social media where the oddest beliefs and ethics can be found and devoured at the touch of mobile phone screen or keyboard. (Let’s invade the Capitol, in the name of God… and in the name of Trump!)

    I agree, I wish there were better, less harmful ways of finding enlightening and enjoyable connections with other people. I’ve read about research where one thing in particular brings people to join certain groups, and (paraphrasing here) that’s the feeling or actual knowledge that you have a unique, personal belief that you can comfortably share with or learn more about from other members of the group. It could be mediated by (e.g.) facebook, meetup, church, or even hatred of other groups, or groups centered around QAnon or Flat Earth. And so on. Just click the “Like” button, or Subscribe.

    I know something else good is out there, or coming soon. I just don’t know why it’s taking us so long to figure out and make happen. Maybe there’s just too damn much thought or anti-thought pollution to navigate through.

    Here’s a nod to Unseen’s https://atheistzone.com/forums/topic/believer-logic/

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