The American left has been drifting into authoritarianism

[Davis]

I have heard the horseshoe theory of politics mentioned a few times in similar discussions recently where it is claimed that the far-right and far-left (the tips of the horseshoe) are closer than people give them credit for but I reject this theory.

The only real use of left right dynamics is placing a number of parties on an arbitrary spectrum. It’s most obvious use is where to seat multiple parties in a legislature in continental European parliaments. The use of “left/right” is far more harmful in terms of gaining knowledge that its usefulness. And if anything, I hear the terms most when people disparage those they disagree with by phrases like “the problem with the left” or “that is a rightist ploy”. Ugh. The horseshoe theory is simply one very over the top example of this. In fact, even people with “far left” or “far right” ideas do not necessarily hold radical views. I understand left/right and conservative/liberal makes it easier to discuss complex politics/economic ideology, but serious, I cannot stress enough how much one should use these terms sparingly.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Davis.

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

The words on my t-shirt “Keep your government hands off my Medicare” are eroded from too many wash cycles or maybe it from giving it the “extra spin” option too often 🙂

[TheEncogitationer]

Simon,

*PSST!* C’mere! I got some news for you!

As long as Omniscience is impossible, we are all subject to Misinformation, Disinformation, and Malinformation (MDM *GROWL!* 🦁)

Omniscience is self-contradictory, since it is knowledge without acquisition and without verification.

Also, Omniscience contradicts Human Volition and Divine Omnipotence, since Omniscience requires the ability to predict the future, which would mean the future is set and not subject to change.

Finally, Omniscience would mean the inability to forget, ignore, or evade, again contradicting Volition and Omnipotence.

The only way to deal with inevitable MDM is through the evidence of the senses combined with the Logic of Reason, now and forever.

A tall order, but no God exists to do it for us and no Government can, will, or should do it for us. Each of us as individuals have to do it ourselves and help each other learn it together. So just do it and enjoy it! 😎

[TheEncogitationer]

Reg,

While not 100% perfect, the Nolan Chart gives a more comprehensive view of political positions than the simplistic, outdated Left-Right Binary Linear barometer.

The Nolan Chart–Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_Chart

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

That’s an interesting article Enco. When reading it and for reasons not yet clear to me, I could hear echoes of the The Great Shark Hunt by the Hunter S. Thompson in the back of my head.

I think I will recommend adding an “A” for the “absence of reasoning” to your MDM acronym. We need a return to proper gonzo journalism now more than ever 🙂 Add the A to get an E. Yeah, OK.

 

[TheEncogitationer]

Reg,

Hunter S. Thompson would probably like the MDMA acronym, by Gosh by Molly, as well other acronyms like Lies Slander and Distortion and maybe even Poltrunery Calumny and Pecksniffery. Even today, it still wouldn’t be weird enough for him. 🍄🌿💊🤪

[Unseen]

Amazingly, it’s happening north of the border in ultra-liberal leftist Canada: martial law, basically, buy a friendly Canada-style version of martial law:

[—]

Canada isn’t under martial law, neither is Ottawa. It’s not particularly amazing. The protestors adopted a somewhat absurd but effective strategy for blockading. We don’t have specific tools to effectively dismantle the blockades, some of which have lasted for days, and one of which has been going on for several weeks. It’s not a situation we’d planned for, I guess. The Emergencies Act allows financial institutions more leeway to temporarily freeze accounts providing financial backing to the blockade efforts. It also adds resources to allow police to remove the blockades.

Now, whether invoking the Emergencies Act is prudent or an overreach is an important conversation to have, but let’s not mischaracterize the situation. If people put up illegal blockades at borders and in urban centres, governments are going to react remove them regardless of whether those blockades were put in place by foreign or domestic agents.

[Unseen]

@Autumn

Definition of martial law:the law administered by military forces that is invoked by a government in an emergency when the civilian law enforcement agencies are unable to maintain public order and safety (source)

 

[—]

They haven’t invoked military forces let alone had military forces administer law.

[Unseen]

Autumn wrote:

They haven’t invoked military forces let alone had military forces administer law.

We’re getting into semantics now. Hasn’t Trudeau effectively deputized city and provincial police with this action? Military law can mean heavily armed police standing on every streetcorner but that is martial law at its most extreme.

[—]

Unseen wrote:

Autumn wrote:

They haven’t invoked military forces let alone had military forces administer law.

We’re getting into semantics now. Hasn’t Trudeau effectively deputized city and provincial police with this action? Military law can mean heavily armed police standing on every streetcorner but that is martial law at its most extreme.

It’s not semantic. The police were already authorized to be present and remove the blockade as part of their ordinary powers. It’s not extraordinary in that regard. If you block the road with your vehicle, eventually the police or similar enforcement agency will come out and remove it. The Ottawa blockade is particularly entrenched and it’s getting outside financial backing. The scale of the blockade is exceptional as is the use of long haul trucks which cannot easily be moved without the cooperation of the owners. Removing the vehicles is logistically difficult, and the private companies ordinarily contracted to do this work have refused, in some cases stating they had been threatened with violence or feared violence. The proposed measures address these barriers to removing the blockade and allow the police to act more efficiently.

For the record, I am not in favour invoking the Emergency Measures Act here. But one of the first steps in criticizing an action should be to understand what it is you are criticizing. It isn’t martial law neither is it analogous to martial law. Those powers do exist within the Emergency Measures Act, I believe. That’s just not what’s happening here.

[Unseen]

@Autumn

Now local provincial police are effectively under Trudeau’s command anytime he wants to use the powers he unilaterally invoked, so even if he doesn’t exercise those powers there is always the threat. There is always the threat that when all else fails, he can bring in the Army, right?

[—]

Not really, no.

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/e-4.5/page-1.html

Declaration of a Public Order Emergency

17 (1) When the Governor in Council believes, on reasonable grounds, that a public order emergency exists and necessitates the taking of special temporary measures for dealing with the emergency, the Governor in Council, after such consultation as is required by section 25, may, by proclamation, so declare.

(2) A declaration of a public order emergency shall specify

(a) concisely the state of affairs constituting the emergency;
(b) the special temporary measures that the Governor in Council anticipates may be necessary for dealing with the emergency; and
(c) if the effects of the emergency do not extend to the whole of Canada, the area of Canada to which the effects of the emergency extend.

18 (1) A declaration of a public order emergency is effective on the day on which it is issued, but a motion for confirmation of the declaration shall be laid before each House of Parliament and be considered in accordance with section 58.

(2) A declaration of a public order emergency expires at the end of thirty days unless the declaration is previously revoked or continued in accordance with this Act.

[Davis]

Unseen, invoking an emergency act (or something similar) is not the same as declaring martial law. While this is a first for Canada, this happens very frequently in many European countries. When protests get very out of hand (and I would say a three week long near occupation of the downtown core of a city including in front of the parliament buildings) is a protest that has gotten out of hand. Just as has happened in Spain, France, Belgium, Germany and even the UK many times, the Prime minister or President invokes emergency rules using a minimal set of tools within those rules as possible to target the specific problem and then end it and end the use of those emergency rules. It is fairly rare to use those rules beyond ending the problem and EVERYONE will scrutinise everything that leader does and a constitutional court can intervene if it does anything approaching “martial law”.

You are applying American style paranoia of government overreach and distrust of government to nations that have a more healthy approach to government. Yes, some don’t like it, it may not be the best solution, but it has the support of large majority of Canadians who agree that “the protestors message has been heard for weeks, now go home”.

Keep in mind, and of extreme note: The police did virtually nothing while mostly white conservative males occupied the streets in front of parliament for weeks in an unauthorised protest. Meanwhile there was a BLM and indigenous rights protest (that went on beyond authorised limits), the police cracked down on it instantly arresting dozens, relatively quickly, with on of the arguments being: they were blocking important roads”. I find this much more horrifying than a prime minister sensibly and cautiously using the emergency act.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Davis.

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