Ukraine has already lost the war
June 7, 2023 at 12:54 am #48570
Unseen, If money is what’s desired by these big investor groups, they could net a whole lot more if lives and resources weren’t being destroyed by Putin’s invasion and could be given productive uses instead of towards munitions for war.
I think the military-industrial complex (do you even believe it exists?) makes more money during a conflict than after it. Every Javelin antitank missile costs $102k. Still, this is mostly an artillery war and the most common weapon is a 155mm howitzer. Basic ballistic shells run about $2K each and guided shells are more like $150K each. I can’t help but think how much good the money spent on just one of those guided shells could do for my city’s homeless. But, the U.S. has its priorities, I guess.
M1A Abrams tanks cost $9M each just to build. According to a report by the U.S. Government Accountability Office, the estimated cost to operate an M1A1 Abrams tank for an hour ranges from $4,000 to $5,500. This includes fuel, maintenance, and other related costs.
So, in case Americans wonder why we can’t have nice things like a working healthcare system, free or subsidized education, and public transportation sufficient to make most people want to give up their cars—all of these things being fairly common even in countries with a lower average income—there you go.
Broken windows do not create net prosperity for an economy, whether it’s done by onesy-twosy kids with rocks or fighter planes sending missiles and sonic booms. And again, never forget, none of this would be happening if Putin had never invaded.
Blame game aside, we aren’t there out of the goodness of our hearts to save the Ukrainians from living under Putin. It has a whole lot more to do with American corporations like Blackrock and Vanguard wanting to buy the country up and for the U.S. to supplant Russia as the primary source for fuel.June 7, 2023 at 1:02 am #48572
I think the state of news dissemination and consumption is atrocious, even a danger to humanity at large. I think your and my views differ mostly on how to deal with it. I just avoid cynical and mocking commentaries as a rule, and prefer to focus on how to educate the consumer side of the supply and demand equation. I’m not saying I know how to do that well, and I’m not saying that the cynical/mocking approach does not have it’s own, beneficial-at-times results.
In any case, our main disagreement per your topic here is, imo, how we perceive the threat of Putin. Although I’ll bet that, all other context aside, you and I can agree that we want Putin to feel the pain and costs of executing this tragic, inhumane war. You and I differ in how we think we should deal with Putin’s nuclear threats, you saying stop the war now and let him win, me saying no, don’t let him gain from a takeover.
New story now, fodder to feed all kinds of established news media and opinionists, conspiracy theorists, and up-to-the-minute news junkies: The dam destruction. I’ve already seen headlines claiming the dam was “blown up”, and speculations on who had the motive. For me, this is one of those stories I’ll not pay attention to for maybe a week until the dopamine rushes have subsided. How about the rest of you?
Starts 3:23 into the 14:25 BBC video.June 7, 2023 at 3:09 am #48576
Well, Putin blew up his own pipeline and dam just so he could blame them on Ukraine. Right. Next, he’ll blow his brains out to spite them as well.
Bad as Putin is, what’s worse is that people are primed to believe anything negative about him and the russkies and ignore anything negative about Ukraine, NATO, or the US. That’s assuming they even get to hear it because the mainstream media might just view it as Russian disinformation. That leaves little work for propagandists and spin doctors working for Ukraine, NATO, and the US.
If I believed that the US war machine, the investment behemoths Blackrock and Vanguard, and the military-industrial complex really wanted a win rather than to drag this war out to the last Ukrainian, I should be committed to an insane asylum. Goes for anyone else believing that the goal of the war is thwarting Putin rather than raping the poor country of Ukraine so that we own or control most of it.
Americans have government of the donors, by the donors, and for the donors. That’s the way it is and The Supreme Court clearly will keep it that way.
The sad thing is that people in foreign countries understand this. It’s the Americans who don’t.June 17, 2023 at 4:07 am #48699
Well, Putin blew up his own pipeline and dam just so he could blame them on Ukraine. Right. Next, he’ll blow his brains out to spite them as well.
OK, I heard ya, while I didn’t feel any need to respond quickly. For the record (again), when evidence is lacking, I only suggest who did what, I don’t actually push conclusions. While I either counter or learn to ignore other final conclusions made without evidence. Especially in today’s atmosphere of rampant ignorance and raging reactions. While some “alt-news” can be eye-opening and informative, most of it isn’t, nor is mainstream news.
Meanwhile, slightly a week after the dam incident, it’s clear there was a massive explosion, according to at least a couple of seismic instruments in other countries. Who perpetrated it, imo, might never be provable, but how it hinders one side more than the other might give more hints. Or perhaps the only intent is to spread misery and disease.
In response to your broader topic, I like Mr. Vexler’s take on this war being executed by Putin with long term intentions, well beyond battle by battle, and even beyond just one year to the next.
(some intro skipped, the rest is almost 15 minutes long)
June 17, 2023 at 2:13 pm #48703
Guys, get your heads out of the Russo propaganda. It’s bullshit.
From Tuesday, when Putin said that Ukraine lost 7,000 men, 160 tanks, and 360 armored vehicles in the opening days of the counteroffensive.
Republican Senator Dick Black: “Ukraine’s offensive hit a steel wall. 7,000 KIA, 160 tanks and 360 armored vehicles destroyed in just one week with trivial gains. It is a pointless bloodbath. Charred Leopard tanks and Bradley vehicles lie everywhere.
Telling Ukraine to fight “for as long as it takes” is inhuman. End this tragic war now.”
Anyone see Bigfoot lately?
Mark Summer (DailyKos.com): “Since Russia launched its illegal invasion of Ukraine, there have been periods in which operational security—especially on the Ukrainian side—has been very tight. Ukrainian forces have generally cooperated in putting their phones down and not sending along those images of a critical battle, a line of smashed vehicles, or a liberated settlement. They’ve been really good … for a day or two. Then we get to see.
There are nearly 1 million people involved in this fight, almost every one of them is carrying a device that can take video and still images, and all of them can squirt those images straight onto the internet with or without the approval of their leaders. Plus this is taking place in a country where there are millions of civilians who are also nearly all equipped with their own in-hand TV studios. Then there are drone videos. There are civilian volunteers driving right out to the battle front. There are journalists mingling with the troops. There are videos produced by military units that have astoundingly professional polish. There is satellite imagery, available even to civilians, so good that it can often not just spot a vehicle, but determine the make.
Since Tuesday, Putin has updated his claims. He now says that Ukraine has lost 186 tanks and 418 armored vehicles.
Sadly, there is no Bigfoot. Happily, there are also not 186 dead Ukrainian tanks sitting out there in the roughly 5-kilometer zone along the front lines. If there were, Russia would not still be sending out videos of the same handful of vehicles lost in the first two days of the counteroffensive.
Earlier this week, Reuters sent news crews right into the thick of the counteroffensive, to the just liberated towns of Storozheve and Neskuchne. They did not pass 160 dead Ukrainian tanks. But they did pass something.
The road into the newly liberated Ukrainian village of Storozheve is lined with the corpses of Russian soldiers and burnt-out armored vehicles.
The grisly scenes bear witness to the ferocity of fighting as Ukrainian troops recaptured Storozheve and several other villages in the past few days as part of a counteroffensive in southern and eastern Ukraine.
These villages have been occupied by Russia since March 2022, just weeks after the invasion began. Now Russia is gone from those locations, except for the Russian bodies that are still awaiting cleanup everywhere along the line of advance. In that same interview where he falsely claimed 160 Ukrainian tanks had been lost, Putin also said that 54 Russian tanks had been destroyed. That part may be pretty close to true. So far, Oryx has cataloged 35 Russian tanks lost since the counteroffensive began around the first of the month. Given another couple of days to catch up to the latest photos, they may well match Putin’s number.
Meanwhile, the actual number of Leopard tanks damaged or destroyed so far seems to be five. At least two of these have been recovered and are being repaired.
Ukraine is on the offensive, but Russia is losing more men and more vehicles. That’s pretty amazing all on its own. And it wouldn’t be happening except that, as kos wrote yesterday, Russia has no concept of strategy.”
Had to cut and paste that whole thing because it’s dead on. It’s on point. As an example Putin sent out more 1958 tanks to the front line. The armor on these tanks is like swiss cheese. So instead of using the tanks as , well, tanks they have dug them into the ground and are trying to use them as artillery pieces. A waste. The barrels on these tanks are not made to be used for constant firing. Like the ones on real artillery cannons. Also, they have limited range.
I don’t think The Ukraine is losing anything. They are slowly wining. And they are doing it without committing atrocities on the Russian population.
June 17, 2023 at 2:40 pm #48705
- This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Noel.
Oh yeah, I do wonder why we can’t have nice things.
In 2001 we Americans had a trillion dollar surplus. President Bush quickly instituted tax cuts that wiped out the surplus. No better health care or infrastructure for you!!! In 2008 stock market crashed and we Americans slowly clawed our way back and the deficit was actually lowered. But the only thing we got out of that was affordable healthcare that was passed with the Right side of the aisle kicking and screaming.
2016 and up. Tax cuts!!! Hell we don’t do too bad for ourselves, my wife and I, but I can’t pinpoint where we saw any of that tax cut legislation in our checks. But still no better healthcare or infrastructure or “Nice Things”.
Afghanistan and Iraq don’t hit as close to home as Europe and NATO. And yet we spent years trying to prop up that Afghani government, outfitting them with trillions of dollars in arms and material. The moment we left they would not even fight for their own country. The Afghani military just layed down their arms and melded into GenPoP. And we still don’t have “Nice Things”.
We let Putin and China run rough shod on us and the rest of the world I want you to tell me about all the “Nice Things” we won’t have.June 17, 2023 at 5:00 pm #48707
I guess what matters if if you are willing to look at the evidence and see what’s in front of your eyes. What follows is my evidence. What evidence do you (or anyone reading) have that Russia did it beyond pure “Let’s blame Russia for everything bad”?:
Biden makes clear the U.S. would “bring an end to it” (the pipeline):
After mission accomplished (no matter who did it, I suppose) Sec’y of State Blinken saw it as a “tremendous opportunity” to remove European dependence on Russia for oil. But then ask yourself who/what benefits from the destruction of the pipelines?
In this clip, you want to zoom ahead to 1:30 and listen to what Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland says “All options are on the table.”
If you have more time:
As for the dam breach, I have no opinion until something like evidence emerges. Putin very well could be behind it. He’s a bastard. I just can’t believe he found some advantage in giving up the Nordstream revenues.
andJune 17, 2023 at 5:30 pm #48712
@One and all
There are two ways to lose a war. One is a military victory resulting in a takeover of the territory by the enemy. The other is end up with a country in ruin. I feel the latter is happening with the complete and total complicity of the U.S. and the rest of NATO,. And I include the recent decision to supply Ukraine with depleted uranium shells.
What motive would the U.S. have for ruining Ukraine. The answer is Blackrock, Vanguard, the military-industrial complex and the rest of the capitalist “usual suspects.”June 17, 2023 at 9:45 pm #48714
OH my gawd Unseen, you ask waht motive.
That is easy. It is humanitarian concerns. Cuz that is how governments operate.June 17, 2023 at 10:07 pm #48715
OH my gawd Unseen, you ask waht motive. That is easy. It is humanitarian concerns. Cuz that is how governments operate.June 18, 2023 at 10:14 am #48716
EmpathyJune 18, 2023 at 4:39 pm #48730
Are we killing people in Syria and aiding in the genocidal war in Yemen out of empathy? For whom? The American people feel empathy but their empathy is detached from the motives that have us in those countries or even in Ukraine.
All of these conflicts are ultimately over oil and other resources.June 26, 2023 at 12:45 am #48860
Given that Ukraine’s vaunted Spring (and now Summer) counteroffensive has been kind of ho-hum at best, they are lucky in that the Wagner Group failed coup will probably eliminate the Wagners from the fight in Ukraine, and they were by far the most successful contingent in the Russian drive.
I’m thinking that the Wagners will be absorbed into the Russian Army and their leader Prigozhin will spend the rest of his life running around trying to avoid being launched out of a 6th floor window in some hotel somewhere or drinking a radioactive after dinner aperitif.
The failure of his coup was a failure on paper even before it began. He had 25,000 troops and military vehicles but no air support and…guess who he depends on for fuel and ammunition?June 26, 2023 at 3:47 am #48867
I apologize for the all-caps but I simply block-copied the headlines as presented on The Intercept.June 27, 2023 at 4:48 am #48881
Unseen and Fellow Unbelievers,
“Brave Yevgeny ran away!
Bravely ran away, away!
When Zelensky and Putin reared their heads,
Yevgeny turned his tail and fled!
He went right into Belarus,
Because he is a Nazi puss!
Brave, brave, brave Yevgeny!” 😁
Here’s hoping The Fat Lady sings for Yevgeny Prigozhin and The Wagner Group! Maybe while they are in Belarus, they’ll have a run-in with the heirs of The Brothers Bielski:
Not men from God, as the trailer said, just Good Humor Men serving up quiescently frozen revenge and saving untold thousands of lives along the way. Think of them instead as Soldiers of Serendipity.
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