WTF is going on in France?
July 4, 2023 at 5:47 pm #49006
Does France have a Muslim Problem? an immigration problem? an assimilation problem? Is Macron’s solution (clamping down on news and social media) a necessary tactic or a strategic power grab?
France has admitted a large numbers of Muslims without effectively assimilating them and a lot of that seems to be due to latent racism and failure to extend adequate resources to this community. While the problem has broken out in violence in France, it has spread beyond their borders.July 4, 2023 at 6:48 pm #49007
Civilization has a problem with Muslims. More generally it has a problem, an intractable problem, with religion. Was it guilt over slavery, imperialism, colonialism that caused Europeans to open their arms and welcome the less fortunate?
As one might have expected the pendulum has swung back towards hatred and xenophobia. Strut and fret hour upon the stage until the last syllable of recorded time which is right around the corner….July 4, 2023 at 8:26 pm #49010
Isn’t it strange how the U.S. doesn’t have a “Muslim problem” but Europe does?
In France, young Muslim men have a hard time finding work and earning a living. Acceptance is low. Combine this with the lack of resources applied to help assimilate Muslims by teaching them the local language and giving them the kind of rights American Muslims have not to be discriminated against for employment or housing, and so ghettoizing was bound to happen.
That they live an isolated existence surely contributed to the resentment that led to this violence. Had it been a French Jew or Asian who had been shot, no large scale riots would have resulted.
France has nothing to blame other than its own practices and policies regarding the treatment of Muslims.July 4, 2023 at 8:45 pm #49012
I am pretty sure that if US had opened its arms to the wretched refuse of the Syrian slaughter and other mass exodus’ in a Trump era that it would have been as bad here. We already know how xenophobic the low life rif raf of republicans are. Wave the flag. Genuflect to guns and guard our borders! For fucks sake!
From what i know Germany bent over backwards for Muslim immigrants. Yes they had to assimilate in terms of learning the language to get good jobs but they got free classes and welfare while they waited. I also think there is a tendency, a strong tendency to be insular among the most pious muslims (yeah i know that sounds like racist shit used against Jews) but as a political institution Islam aint trying to fit in…it is trying to take over.July 5, 2023 at 4:59 am #49021
I can’t believe the Redacted newscaster Natali Morris had not heard of “the racism of low expectations.”. IIRC, whoever wrote George W. Bush’s speeches used the term “the soft bigotry of low expectations” at least almost a generation ago.
I haven’t fully looked into the story, but if there is a problem of police brutality, the officer(s) should be tried and if found guilty, criminally prosecuted and the victim’s survivors and heirs civilly remedied (and hopefully France has some legal safeguards against police brutality.). It does not justify immigrant communities threatening and destroying the persons and property of uninvolved innocent third parties.
As for the larger issue of immigration, if persons are peaceful and honest, not wearing foreign uniforms, not known criminals or international terrorists, and self-supporting (or voluntarily-sponsored in the case of children, elderly, or the infirm,) let them come across our borders, scrape and hose the shit off their shoes, and leave behind whatever brought them here. (And, of course, all this should also apply to natural-born Citizens.)
People can vary on food, clothes, dance, art, thoughts, beliefs, and other things, but everything must be compatible with respect for the Individual Rights of others.
To the extent the U.S. has done this in the past, it worked splendidly. Only Welfare Statism at home and threats from abroad create immigration problems.
July 5, 2023 at 5:17 am #49023
- This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling
Hi! Well I’am siding with the protestors in France not the government or the police because its the people you have to reach out to not the political leaders.July 5, 2023 at 2:03 pm #49025
For countries with negative population growth, well managed immigration with assimilation is a positive. Muslims have a huge problem with assimilation. In many cases, I don’t really want them here. Vetting with much caution to make sure they will not be subversive is required. And I have no idea what looting, and destruction has to do with protesting.July 5, 2023 at 4:34 pm #49026
Even after vetting there is the potential for so called radicalization. That is particularly true if they’re experiencing economic disadvantage and discrimination. Massive numbers of people from a massive cult is not ideal.July 5, 2023 at 5:35 pm #49028
@robert and Jake
Luckily for us, Muslims tend to assimilate pretty well in the U.S., able to find work, buy homes, and enjoy the American way of life about as well as Christians. Of course, like Jews and Asians, they do suffer a degree of harassment from idiots who assume every Muslim is wearing a suicide vest.
The proof of successful assimilation is the rarity of homegrown Islamist terror attacks, especially impressive given the massive size of our country. In the last 10 years, there have been only seven, I believe. Of course, when they happen they make the news and feed into the prejudices of The Great MAGA Unwashed, but the fact remains that by and large, American Muslims participate in and contribute to American life and are not ghettoized or repressed into radicalization. This must continue so we don’t end up like France, Germany and the rest.
And, yes, it would be unwise to admit a flood of refugees from lands where the Muslims are already highly-radicalized.
The fact remains, Christian radicals are responsible for more mayhem here in America.July 5, 2023 at 6:34 pm #49031
It just goes to show you the amusement park and titty bar are more powerful than the crescent and star.
And not only American anti-cult influences and opportunity but also it is likely an easier transition socially to adapt by assimilating when enclaves of Muslims are not as great. I assume the social/cultural pressures to conform are greater in that case.July 5, 2023 at 6:40 pm #49032
Muslims only represent 1% of the US population vs France at 10%, but yeah, better assimilated into society, I’d agree.July 5, 2023 at 6:43 pm #49033
If Islam is to live among Americans, The West, or Civilization in general, it will need a new “revelation” that gives up Jihad, Taquiiya, and Sha’ria law.
On the bright side, many new converts to Islam slowly and quietly back away from Islam when they see what it’s all about and how much control it has over their lives, usually within 3 years. So Islam is at the same time the fastest growing and fastest shrinking religion.
Also, people in Islamic nations are becoming as deluged in Information Age media as we are, and getting the knowledge that comes with it. “The more one knows, the less one believes.”
The spread of Islam is also impaired by the fact that Saudi Arabia and Iran are learning that they no longer have the lock on petroleum and thus have less leverage and fewer revenues to build mosques and Islamic outposts. Saudi Arabia and other States in the Arabian Peninsula are diversifying their economies in response and bringing in more immigrants from India and Nepal, who also bring other religious perspectives that counter Islam.
Petroleum production in the U.S. has hit a little speed-bump with Biden closing the pipelines, but what doesn’t last can’t last, so the long haul is in our favor if we don’t stupidly scare ourselves into stopping for good. Any and all problems created by petroleum should be met with reason and not blindfolded fear.
Done right, the “revelation” that takes the teeth out of Islam can be the spark of Enlightenment and not the flash of an ICBM.July 10, 2023 at 5:55 pm #49098
In a nutshell, the French government under Macron seems to feel that being right (as it sees it) gives it the right to ride roughshod over everyone. This isn’t about the treatment of Muslims, it’s about a government that doesn’t respect its public.
July 10, 2023 at 8:52 pm #49104July 10, 2023 at 11:28 pm #49105
- This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Unseen.
You are under the illusion, Unseen, that any government respects the public. With very few exceptions, governments, in fact leaders of any kind, do so to suit their own interests and to maintain the interests of those who keep them in power. Yes, ideology does shape to some degree how they word bills and what they focus on. Over all…governments, and all leaders, answer to those who help keep them in power, and to no one else.
France, as many there see it, compared with neighbouring countries, is something of an outlier in Western Europe (with perhaps the exception of Italy), in which they seem to deny that racism, sexism, homophobia, inequality is a serious problem that needs to be tackled. They are an enlightened civilised folk for which progress has been made and some wrinkles need to be ironed out. Social justice is an Anglo-Saxon menace that is not necessary in France because all is well. This is of course dog shit because France is no more or less racist, sexist or homophobic than its neighbours. And social justice is hardly an Anglo-Saxon boogeyman. Striking protests in France (and Europe) is very different to these kind of riots.
Not addressing racial issues, inequality (in a serious way) simply invites riots. One need only look at many states in the US to see what happens when governments and police forces pretend that they aren’t disproportionately violent/brutal towards African American communities and do little to systematically change it. Not that other states or countries are doing enough, but simply acknowledging the problems and taking baby steps to addressing them certainly helps.
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