Are there dangerous ideas?

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This topic contains 360 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Unseen 1 week ago.

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  • #34539

    Unseen
    Participant

    Jake, I’m not denying the problem. However, I’m still waiting for the explanation as to how anti-hate speech laws are going to keep students from harassing, demeaning, dehumanizing, etc., each other. Let’s drill down on that for your next post. Do we send in police to sweep through the school, arresting all the hate speakers, and then what? …to be reeducated? I’m not sure how legislation helps. I think society has to work this shit out.

    #34540

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Unseen, I doubt many incidents will be sufficient to invoke those laws. However if schools announce that there will be zero tolerance for singling out students for subjection to beatings, dehumanization and harassment motivated by hate then they need to set examples. Laws are impactful when their spirit and letter is taken up in an even handed manner. I suspect many schools are aware and complicit in failing to act against the perpetrators of hate crime.

    I agree that society has to work this shit out. But our laws reflect our values. We ought to give no quarter to the most vile forms of hate speech. Further we ought to punish hate crimes. When we passed fugitive slave laws we revealed our priorities.

    Rape laws don’t stop rape. Does that mean we ought to decriminalize rape?

    #34543

    Unseen
    Participant

    As I said earlier, our attempts to “fix” the problems of our black and brown citizens gave us Trump. Not entirely, but that is an oft-cited reason why Americans fed up with Washington give for following that Pied Piper of racism. Paradoxically, our laws designed put a damper on racism created more racism.

    I’m not sure how dragging hateful foul-mouth youths in front of a judge is going to make things better. It may make things worse.

    There’s a certain road said to be paved with good intentions.

    #34544

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Jake,

    I thought were sick of the conversation, but since you insist…

    Enco,

    I have a copy of the constitution in my office. Before i look at any files I get down on all fours on the prayer rug and pay homage and give oblations to almighty Jesus Constitution. It is a pretty cool document in the framework of the period. But lets not go cuckoo bananas over it. Judged through a modern lens it is sexist and racist. It is brought to life by those who interpret it. Guess what? Those Supremes have in many instances sucked. Hugo Black was a former member of the KKK.

    Part of what makes the Constitution venerable is that there is no mention of Jesus or any other proported God-Man or Prophet, nor is there any mention of Christianity, Judaism, Islam or any other religion, pro or con.

    In fact, the only mention of a God at all is in the dating of the document, “In The Year of Our Lord,” but that’s just boilerplate and you can thank your fellow lawyers for that.

    What also makes the U.S. Constitution venerable is that it includes a process for passing new Amendments and even for a Constitutional Convention.  Neither are easy processes, nor should they be, but they are still possible and  it proves the Founders didn’t  regard the Constitution as  infallible holy writ.

    In other words, the U.S. Constitution is a secular and a human document, well worth praise by Atheists and all other U.S. Citizens and thoughtful people worldwide.

    Also noteworthy, yes, Justice Hugo Black was a Klansman, but he was also behind some of the greatest rulings that defended the Civil Rights of freed slaves and Civil Liberties for all U.S. Citizens.

    People can say and think stupid things, but end up doing the right thing too.

    And yes, Jefferson wrote idealistic checks that his body politic didn’t cash, but others such as Frederick Douglass and Martin Luther King, Jr. got inspiration from Jefferson’s words and fronted the capital to back Jefferson’s checks up.   And Jefferson’s words still inspire freedom-fighters everywhere today.

    People are complicated…a little nuance that all this “hate speech” and “hate crime” talk somehow misses.

    #34546

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Jake,

    I am guessing you have some atheists in your family or who have influenced you because you are very religious in your thinking. Consider the percentage of newborns born to fundamentalist families who become atheists v. newborns in secular culture and or with atheist/agnostic parents who have not mind fucked their kids in churches, synagogues and mosques. Do those people choose to be religious?

    Are you a head shrink as well as an attorney?   If so, your guesses on the sources of my Atheism and the alleged religion in my thinking are all wrong.  You may want to consider suing your educational institutions to get your tuition back.

    #34548

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Enco, i apologize in advance for what i am about to say. I notice many common spelling and syntactic errors. For instance there is tenant for tenet…realator for realtor…imply from when it is imply that…infer that when it is infer from and many others…but i have never seen proported for purported. None of the aforementioned substantive and i make mistakes too but i could not resist.

    Starting at around 205 of the video we hear a bum explain the genius of the constitution.

    #34549

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Unseen, you say, our attempts to “fix” the problems of our black and brown citizens gave us Trump. Not entirely, but that is an oft-cited reason why Americans fed up with Washington give for following that Pied Piper of racism.

    Will you please elaborate. I am not sure what you are getting at. You also say our laws designed to put a damper on racism created more racism. Which laws? How so? Your reference to hateful foul-mouth youths is a straw dog.

    I assert that the government ought to have the right to ban hate speech. Make an argument against that assertion.

    #34551

    Davis
    Moderator

    No unseen…pay attention. I said hate crimes are under-reported (not the murders). The estimations are based on hate crimes reported to LGTBQ+ groups but not to the police. There are MANY reasons why such crimes go unreported not least because people are in the closet, fear retribution or know there is little chance anything will be done about the crime. But nice try diminishing things. I like how you try to dismiss this as inconsequential because of America’s high population. You need not look at just at supporting statistics alone but how LGTBQ+ report their own experinces. For example 1 in three out of the closet LGTBQ+ report vicious school bullying. 1 in 10 adult LGTBQ+ report being on the receiving end of hate speech on a yearly bases (we are talking 10% here). I’m sure you’ll find a way to dismiss this too. So I won’t bother with you anymore on trying to show you how bad things are for the LGTBQ+ community because you seem determined to not believe it.

    And no…I don’t think Spain and America are comparable in terms of hate crimes. There hasn’t been a single LGTBQ+ murder here for decades in Spain and there were nearly a dozen in the US  with trans victims alone this year. The rate of hate crimes in Spain per capita is a fraction of what it is compared to the US. Hate speech laws in Spain saw hate crimes go down dramatically while they have not in the US. Your country is an utter breeding ground of out of control hate. Instead of pretending like it isn’t…perhaps you might promote programs in your country that actually deal with it instead of pretending everything is find just cause you’ve had a black president and a lesbian govenor.

    #34553

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers,

    There’s something rarely if ever discussed on the subject of “hate speech” and “hate crimes” laws:

    People of “protected classes” can and will say and do hateful things against people of other “protected classes.”  The examples abound:

    “Ethnic cleansing” is happening in Compton, California and probably in every mavor city in the U.S.

    The New Race War: Black and Hispanic Gangs Kill Each Other Over Turf
    http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/health/racism/news.php?q=1215637587

    Hispanic Racism Goes Unreported
    https://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/608028?section=ArmstrongWilliams&keywords=Hispanic-Racism-blacks-immigrants&year=2014&month=11&date=18&id=608028&oref=duckduckgo.com

     

    And how would you like to be told that you didn’t even exist, both by the Straight and the LGBTQ+ communities?  What are the implications of that for crime and individual rights?

    Bi and Pan Erasure: Can It End?
    https://lukewaltham.medium.com/bi-and-pan-erasure-can-it-end-b160ea32af08

    These Feminists think Transgendered persons are tumbling their game and muscling in on their racket.  This isn’t just academic argle-bargle, but involves dead-serious trolling, doxxing, stalking, assault, and death threats from both sides:

    Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism–RationalWiki
    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trans-exclusionary_radical_feminism

    I get the Spidey-Sense that in the last case, the adults that will separate the safety seats and turn the car around will be…men…cis-men…with big black robes, big silver badges, and big black guns.  The irony would be delicious if not so sad.

    How are “hate speech” and “hate crime” laws to be applied here in these real scenarios?  Is justice a matter of who files charges first or even, as Thrasymachus put it, “the interests of the stronger?”

    On court dockets, the cases are always listed with individual names as the defendants and individual names as the victims.  Let’s go with that and give up this notion of “protected classes.”  Crimes are committed by individuals and against individuals and need to be fought accordingly.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Grammar agreement
    #34556

    Davis
    Moderator

    Crimes are committed by individuals and against individuals and need to be fought accordingly.

    I see encoginator. So when the terrorists flew their planes into the world trade centre building it was the act of a few individuals against the 4000 or so individuals who died that day? Is that the extent of their crimes simply a few individuals hurting the individuals who were murdered? Or perhaps just maybe it was both symbolically AND legally a crime greater than just the murder of a few individuals. Do you think about the things you have just typed before you click on submit?

    #34557

    Davis
    Moderator

    People of “protected classes” can and will say and do hateful things against people of other “protected classes.”  The examples abound:

    Do you think you’re saying something that isn’t already obvious to everyone? There is no reason why someone of a protected class wouldn’t be charged for a hate crime against another protected class. Why would they not be? Are you insinuating that a white LGTBQ+ person wouldn’t be charged with a hate crime or hate speech if they beat up a black person and called them the N word just because they are black? Did you think this was a sort of “ahah…gotcha moment”? You’re truly fishing for any excuse you can get to resist these entirely sensible laws.

    #34558

    Unseen
    Participant

    How old are you, Jake? Today, generally speaking, it’s the kids who are at the forefront of accepting gays, blacks, Hispanics.

    I suspect that where this isn’t true, it’s in the same demographic pool that voted for Trump. Can we afford to piss them off further or add to that segment’s numbers by giving them new reasons to resent the government?

    #34559

    Unseen
    Participant
    Unseen, I doubt many incidents will be sufficient to invoke those laws. However if schools announce that there will be zero tolerance for singling out students for subjection to beatings, dehumanization and harassment motivated by hate then they need to set examples.

    That’s a school policy, not a law.

    Laws are impactful when their spirit and letter is taken up in an even handed manner. I suspect many schools are aware and complicit in failing to act against the perpetrators of hate crime.

    Or, they reflect local attitudes which they can’t ignore. If the school is in the Bible Belt, the school board is likely to reflect that fact.

    I agree that society has to work this shit out. But our laws reflect our values. We ought to give no quarter to the most vile forms of hate speech. Further we ought to punish hate crimes. When we passed fugitive slave laws we revealed our priorities. Rape laws don’t stop rape. Does that mean we ought to decriminalize rape?

    Well, actually, since every rape is a physical assault, one could easily imagine a country without rape laws, prosecuting rapes as aggravated assaults. That would not in any way make rape OK.

    #34560

    Unseen
    Participant

    Unseen, you say, our attempts to “fix” the problems of our black and brown citizens gave us Trump. Not entirely, but that is an oft-cited reason why Americans fed up with Washington give for following that Pied Piper of racism.

    Will you please elaborate. I am not sure what you are getting at. You also say our laws designed to put a damper on racism created more racism. Which laws? How so? Your reference to hateful foul-mouth youths is a straw dog.

    I assert that the government ought to have the right to ban hate speech. Make an argument against that assertion.

    It’s a common belief in the part of the country called “Middle America” that America rewards work, effort, persistence, innovation, etc. In this part of the country (which is more a state of mind than a geographically-defined region), Affirmative Action, special financial assistance for minorities, a double set of qualification standards for all kinds of things making easier for minorities to qualify (and harder for the majority that pays the bulk of the taxes). I could go on, Hopefully, you get the flavor.

    Why Trump is winning: His supporters think America is screwing over whites

    Whether the government “ought to have the right to ban hate speech,” is a legal matter and probably a constitutional matter only the Supreme Court can settle. So that’s unclear. What is clear is that a large swath of the public (that means voters) think either that it shouldn’t be dipping its toe into how people interact with each other.

    As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, Trump has not lost the election over his views on race, gays, and women. If he hadn’t bungled the pandemic so assiduously, he’d be getting ready for a second term.

    #34561

    Unseen
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers, There’s something rarely if ever discussed on the subject of “hate soeech” and “hate crimes” laws: People of “protected classes” can and will say and do hateful things against people of other “protected classes.” The examples abound: “Ethnic cleansing” is happening in Compton, California and probably in every mavor city in the U.S. (and on and on)

    This is what you get when “inclusion” goes tribal. When you go from the Melting Pot to the Tossed Salad concept of inclusion, this seems to be what happens.

    I regard myself as a socialist but I’m also a realist. Sometimes what we’d like to work and want to work simply doesn’t and wishing and hoping won’t change things. Some things will just have to wait for the electorate to change. We live in a democracy and trying to shove your politics down the public’s gullet will just result in the kind of resentments we are seeing.

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