Are there dangerous ideas?

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This topic contains 360 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Unseen 1 week ago.

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  • #34516

    Davis
    Moderator

    Unseen those are examples of mockery and derision. They are terrible things but not on the level of hate speech. Of course everything depends on the country but of all the European countries I know it would go like this:

    An ethnic person walks by

    Cruel but not hate speech: Oh gross something smells like curry and mothballs.

    Hate speech: Fucking paki assholes. Go back to pakistan you aren’t wanted here.

    A lesbian walks by:

    Cruel but not hate speech: Buzz cuts? You know it isn’t the 80s.

    Hate speech: God damn dikes. You’ll burn in hell. God hates you.

    An old person walks by:

    Cruel but not hate speech: Oh has the old man forgotten where he is? Would you like us to walk you home old timer?

    Would be hate speech: Fucking geriatric. We should put you all down. You’re a waste of perfectly good food and oxygen.

    ______

    I am entirely unaware of any notable movement or number of people saying these kinds of things which are high enough to consider special protection to the elderly. Have you been clearly and unambiguously told you are not human because you are old? If I am mistaken and this is a systemic problem…then by ALL means the elderly should be afforded the same protections.

    #34519

    Unseen
    Participant

    What you left out, Davis, is how comments FELT and how the comments were being used to hurt and degrade the other.

    #34522

    Davis
    Moderator

    No unseen I am distinguishing between assholy cruel speech and hate speech. If we were to include your examples as hate speech then hate speech would be such an enormously broad category that virtually everyone would be protected from any douchey put-down. Hate speech protects vulnerable marginalised groups from the most vicious dehumanising speech. It doesn’t limit speech at any cost to protect everyone’s feelings.

    #34526

    Unseen
    Participant

    No unseen I am distinguishing between assholy cruel speech and hate speech. If we were to include your examples as hate speech then hate speech would be such an enormously broad category that virtually everyone would be protected from any douchey put-down. Hate speech protects vulnerable marginalised groups from the most vicious dehumanising speech. It doesn’t limit speech at any cost to protect everyone’s feelings.

    Where are gays so marginalized that they need the heavy hand of the government? The Governor or my state, Oregon, got elected even though she’s a lesbian. Pete Buttigieg became Mayor of South Bend, Indiana and made a serious run for the Democratic nomination. How does this supposed “marginalization” then display itself?

    Maybe it’s worse in Europe, but here in the U.S., frankly gays earn on average more money than straights. So, how does this marginalization manifest itself?

    #34527

    jakelafort
    Participant

    How does it manifest?

    Not long ago gays could not get married in USA. Not long ago the military policy was don’t ask, don’t tell. The general tenor of society is anti-gay. Few male professional athletes have had the courage to come out. I know a lawyer who married a woman just to fit in. Fucked up her life and fucked up his life but that is how strongly hate speech affected him. I bet that sort of concealment of a person’s orientation is common. Imagine how it is among fundamentalists and in every Islamic nation. That is truly sad and fucked up. How many times did I hear anti-gay BS in school? When hate speech is permitted without consequences it enables hatred to be broadcast in the mainstream. The suffering caused and enabled by tolerance of hatred is mind boggling.

    #34528

    jakelafort
    Participant

    I wish i could say the opposition to proscription of hate speech is mind boggling. But i am not surprised. Humans are on average incapable or unwilling to think deeply enough to challenge a cherished position on an issue. That is why i brought up marijuana. So obviously wrongly decided and so many Americans who supported it! A real no brainer-USA both in terms of law and policy was so incredibly boneheaded and European nations followed the lead of the USA. It is the same thing with constitutional acceptance of hate speech.

    #34529

    Unseen
    Participant

    How does it manifest? Not long ago gays could not get married in USA. Not long ago the military policy was don’t ask, don’t tell. The general tenor of society is anti-gay. Few male professional athletes have had the courage to come out. I know a lawyer who married a woman just to fit in. Fucked up her life and fucked up his life but that is how strongly hate speech affected him. I bet that sort of concealment of a person’s orientation is common. Imagine how it is among fundamentalists and in every Islamic nation. That is truly sad and fucked up. How many times did I hear anti-gay BS in school? When hate speech is permitted without consequences it enables hatred to be broadcast in the mainstream. The suffering caused and enabled by tolerance of hatred is mind boggling.

    I can’t even remember the last time I heard any anti-gay hate speech spoken by an adult. Kids? Probably a different story, so let’s bring in the government! Maybe dragging them into court to send them off for reeducation would work.

    #34530

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Unseen, that is such crap.

    You are so cavalier about it. It is no skin off of your nose, right?

    #34531

    Trump appointed judges have acted today to ensure that many more LGBTQ citizens will not be in a hurry to come out openly. Why not? Because of vile words directed towards them on a regular basis. It is not always the loud swearing and or explicit derogatory commentary that hurts the most. It is the underlying atmosphere that is created by such judges that eats away at peoples confidence and the implicit “permission” it gives to the ignorant and unthinking idiots that allows them to continue to “freely express” their manufactured hatred. The Evangelical Christians are obsessed with what other people do in private, be it having sex, smoking weed or playing video games. If people are afraid to be open about their sexuality then we need to ask them why. It is not a “them and us” situation. We are all “us”.  Next time I am in Publix I will be wearing my rainbow t-shirt.

    #34533

    Davis
    Moderator

    I guess that means the 1,500 reported hate crimes against LGTBQ+ in the US (including over a dozen murders of trans people alone) are simply one side of a scale that is balanced by the fact that your state had an elected gay leader (keep in mind it is estimated that for every reported crime hundreds go unreported). I would imagine also the hundreds of LGBTQ+ that are bullied into suicide every year in your country seem okay in light of the fact that there are respected gay celebrities and that many people have a gay friend so they no longer need protection right? The fact that you don’t see rampant homophobia doesn’t mean it isn’t an extremely serious problem that pointlessly crushes thousands of people on a daily basis. Just because thousands of LGTBQ+ enjoy a liberated life in pockets of tolerance doesn’t mean thousands don’t suffer in their opposite reality. Even in the LGTBQ+ paradise of Madrid I hear the word “faggot” multiple times a day as a casual insult between straight friends and I have friends still getting over the trauma of being kicked out of their houses. In any case all of this utterly PALES in comparison to what African Americans experience (in numbers and severity of discrimination). Pfff…you think that when Obama was elected president suddenly centuries of black racism went away? Does a few people from a marginalised community finding success and “some” progress being made mean protections are no longer necesary?

    #34534

    Davis
    Moderator

    If people are afraid to be open about their sexuality then we need to ask them why.

    Reg pretty much points to the biggest burning red flag unseen. You point out an elected LGBTQ+ leader in your state. That’s nice. Senior elected politicians who are out of the closet however no where near approach how many there should be if they were representative of the population. How about the fact that there is only ONE player in the NHL, NFL, NBA and MLB leagues who is out of the closet. By the most conservative estimates there should be 200-300 gay professional sportsmen. ONE is openly gay. In all of European premier league foot ball (tens of thousands of players) there is one out of the closet player. To answer Reg’s question: why is this the case? This is the case solely because of rampant homophobia and hate speech and the actions of influential people (including politicians and judges of course) who contribute towards it.

    #34535

    Unseen
    Participant

    I guess that means the 1,500 reported hate crimes against LGTBQ+ in the US (including over a dozen murders of trans people alone) are simply one side of a scale that is balanced by the fact that your state had an elected gay leader (keep in mind it is estimated that for every reported crime hundreds go unreported). I would imagine also the hundreds of LGBTQ+ that are bullied into suicide every year in your country seem okay in light of the fact that there are respected gay celebrities and that many people have a gay friend so they no longer need protection right? The fact that you don’t see rampant homophobia doesn’t mean it isn’t an extremely serious problem that pointlessly crushes thousands of people on a daily basis. Just because thousands of LGTBQ+ enjoy a liberated life in pockets of tolerance doesn’t mean thousands don’t suffer in their opposite reality. Even in the LGTBQ+ paradise of Madrid I hear the word “faggot” multiple times a day as a casual insult between straight friends and I have friends still getting over the trauma of being kicked out of their houses. In any case all of this utterly PALES in comparison to what African Americans experience (in numbers and severity of discrimination). Pfff…you think that when Obama was elected president suddenly centuries of black racism went away? Does a few people from a marginalised community finding success and “some” progress being made mean protections are no longer necesary?

    Where is this name calling mostly going on? Middle and high school, biker and hillbilly bars. Like I said, I never hear it, but I guess I steer clear of places where lowlifes congregate. And where there is hate, can we really hope to prosecute it out of existence, or might that not actually increase it? Sure, I’d like us all to get along and my best male friend and ex-roommate is gay.

    Someone explain to me please how the intrusion of the law is going to substantially end hatred.

    The U.S. government’s efforts to help blacks and browns here played a large role in increasing resentment and hatred and in getting the racist Trump elected. He only lost the presidential election due to his ridiculously hamhanded response to the pandemic. Otherwise, he’d be enjoying a second term, quite possibly by an even wider margin.

    A large part of the population here doesn’t want the Federal government in the business of taking sides, picking winners and losers. Trump was a symptom of something the Federal government largely caused.

    The public’s attitude toward gays, in general, has become far more tolerant, but not due to prosecuting hate speech, but instead due to the public realizing that gays are among us. That people we like or love came out of the closet

    What I’m not hearing is this: Since you’ll have to grant that a lot of hate speech takes place among immature people in school, how does hate speech legislation protect them?

    #34536

    Unseen
    Participant

    I guess that means the 1,500 reported hate crimes against LGTBQ+ in the US (including over a dozen murders of trans people alone) are simply one side of a scale that is balanced by the fact that your state had an elected gay leader (keep in mind it is estimated that for every reported crime hundreds go unreported).

    The idea that for every murder of a gay or trans hundreds go unreported is just ridiculous on its face. What would keep people from reporting a murder?

    and

    It does sound like Spain has its problems perhaps worse than the U.S. The numbers you list of hate crimes and murders would be horrific for Spain, but you are aware I hope that the U.S. is the third most populous country on Earth with 330,000,000+ people. Any statistic for any crime you can imagine is likely to be a large number.

    Also, just now I checked in with my gay ex-roomie, chatting him up on Facebook:

    Unseen: I’m curious. What anti-gay experiences, if any, did you have during your time in Portland (a year or so?). I don’t recall you telling me about any. BTW, do you know that our current governor is a lesbian?

    Kous: I didn’t experience any. Portland was one of the best times of my life.

    Unseen: That’s what I thought. I’m in a discussion about hate crime legislation on an atheist board and one gay guy there is a big proponent of gay rights legislation and I’m saying hate speech legislation might just make things worse. Legislation protecting gays in terms of employment and housing is another matter, I think.

    Kous: (big thumbs up sign)

    Unseen: That’s what I thought.

    #34537

    Unseen
    Participant

    Trump appointed judges have acted today to ensure that many more LGBTQ citizens will not be in a hurry to come out openly. Why not? Because of vile words directed towards them on a regular basis. It is not always the loud swearing and or explicit derogatory commentary that hurts the most. It is the underlying atmosphere that is created by such judges that eats away at peoples confidence and the implicit “permission” it gives to the ignorant and unthinking idiots that allows them to continue to “freely express” their manufactured hatred. The Evangelical Christians are obsessed with what other people do in private, be it having sex, smoking weed or playing video games. If people are afraid to be open about their sexuality then we need to ask them why. It is not a “them and us” situation. We are all “us”. Next time I am in Publix I will be wearing my rainbow t-shirt.

    Reg, I have no idea what you are talking about. An openly anti-gay judge in the U.S. is just not a common thing. In most jurisdictions, an openly hate-speaking anti-gay judge would be disbarred in short order.

    #34538

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Unseen,

    Your experiences are atypical. I attended a public high school in an affluent town in liberal Massachusetts. What i witnessed was sickening. The few Blacks who attended under the METCO program were bussed in cuz no Blacks lived there. There were sickening acts of racism. I as a Jewish kid got a nice firsthand introduction to anti-semitism. Gays were not open. I heard lots of anti-gay speech. This is a town where 98 percent of the graduates go on to university and is in the top 3 of income in MA. Ya might expect it is enlightened. Think again. Do you suppose that those kids now in their 50s have shed the viruses that were passed on to them and to the generations before them? Kids are so hip to the biases, prejudices and hatreds of their parents. It aint about those hillbilly bars where that redneck drinks Budweiser! The long long legs of historical hatreds are perpetuated generation to generation. The free dissemination of hate viruses contributes/causes myriad lives led in quiet desperation and many others ending in death or withstanding acts of persecution.

    Nobody is going to sanitize us. Aint happening. But giving the hosts of mind viruses 1st amendment protection to insure the survival of the virus is childish. As aforementioned the nature of speech is always examined in free speech analysis. There is a balancing test. Oh fuck it…i aint going through that again.

    Change happens when we become more secular and less religious. Ultimately it is something that has to be taught or unlearned. Nobody is born a hater. A change in first amendment law as to hate speech is not a panacea. Not by a longshot. However the government ought to have the capability to go after hate groups-and not cuz of evasion of taxes or some BS reason, instead because of the hate group’s message, its intent, and the consequences of leaving them unmolested in an age in which the internet is a powerful new weapon. Further, those individuals who are targeted for no other reason than being gay, Jewish, Black ought to have knowledge that the state will prosecute the mother fuckers.

    We as a species are so easily led. Beliefs are so firmly held. Shit can change as to those hatreds…maybe…lessen at least. We could create programs that challenge those viruses by incorporating into the curriculum of public schools. Hell, there have been programs in which Palestinian and Jewish Israelis become friends. If the zeitgeist changes then the anti antis will be the main influence. It is at least a start when we stop the poisoning of the zeitgeist by prohibiting the poisoning of the wells.

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