Are there dangerous ideas?

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This topic contains 360 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Unseen 2 days, 12 hours ago.

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  • #32958

    Unseen
    Participant

    I don’t think that terminally ill anyone (children or adults) should be euthanized against their will (that is crazy) but they most certainly be allowed to die with dignity if they wish (their parents desire to extend their suffering for their own reasons be damned). To expect someone to continue suffering is what cheapens life.

    They shoot horses, don’t they?

    I wonder how a parent would give a kid a voice in the matter. “See, Pat, when most people grow up they go to school and make friends, they party together, they go to college, meet their sweetheart and marry. They have children who they love and cherish just as we love and cherish you, and they grow old watching their children grow into full adults.

    “But, you see, Pat. None of that is going to happen for you. Instead, you’ll be wracked with unbearable pain until the last vaguely glowing ember of consciousness is out.

    “We can end it with a heavy dose of morphine, if you like, or you can suffer. If  you choose to suffer, we’ll be with  you all the way.

    “So, Pat, what will it be? Morphine or agony?”

    #32959

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Wow that is one heck of a heart-rending hypothetical. (no, horses, get drugs to put em down)

    The one additional consideration is the prospect of medical advances to address chronic pain and disability. If a kid can hang on for 5 or 10 years there may be an answer.

    #32960

    Davis
    Moderator

    I would certainly rather the parents have that conversation than just let the kid suffer because they don’t want to have it, worse because they cannot let go earlier and the most worstest: because the divine being in the sky they believe in doesn’t permit it. The only reason the West is still so bloody hung up on euthanasia is because of the remnants of so called “Christian morality”. The idea that you life is for God to take away and not your own, or that ending your life early is sinful and a one way ticket to our loving moral forgiving God’s eternal underground torture chamber. There is literally no other reasonable ethical argument to extent someone’s suffering (or pressure them into doing so) when they want to go or can make that decision themselves.

    Despite 70% of Brits having absolutely no problem with Euthanasia (with reasonable precautionary measures set in place), the bill was defeated, mostly because of conservative MPs who had objections, almost every one of them God related or arguments that parroted the Church’s stance on the matter: “pointless suffering is divine”. Oh and: if we allow euthanasia then it is an absolute inevitability that old folks homes will become gas chambers and we start knocking-off all those inconvenient old people we can just manipulate into Euthanasia. An utterly divine slippery slope fallacy to justify Christianity’s love of needless pain and agony.

    #32961

    jakelafort
    Participant

    I think Davis is correct. Ya gotta give kid full disclosure including prospects for medical advances.

    #32962

    Davis
    Moderator

    If a kid can hang on for 5 or 10 years there may be an answer.

    I don’t know if you have suffered chronic pain or agony. It is horrendous. Imagine having the feeling of your bones broken every day and given totally insufficient pain killers. And being told: don’t worry…in five years there just might be a chance we can reduce a little bit of that pain and an even tinier chance we can cure you. Come-on buddy…hold on. The pain can’t be that bad. Just be a trooper!

    #32963

    jakelafort
    Participant

    I am just recovering from third time with Lyme disease and it occurred to me that if i were to feel like this every day I would want to end my life. It is a case by case decision.

    I have read some promising articles in last few months on possibility of managing or even eliminating chronic pain.

    My business partner endured years of chronic pain while practicing law until he finally had to turn to opioids. So i have seen how it impacts personality. No matter how stoic one is i think chronic pain becomes the primary focus of life-it turns life into hell.

    #32964

    Unseen
    Participant

    Wow that is one heck of a heart-rending hypothetical. (no, horses, get drugs to put em down) The one additional consideration is the prospect of medical advances to address chronic pain and disability. If a kid can hang on for 5 or 10 years there may be an answer.

    I’m betting horses are put down with a rifle when the rifle is handier than a shot of a drug. You are probably talking about race horses. I would guess that a farmer who happens on a deer or moose that’s been hit by car or truck and is suffering has ended it with a rifle often enough.

    #32965

    Davis
    Moderator

    I suffer from severe chronic back pain (for 20 years now). People seriously resist going onto medication thinking it’s a one-way-street to higher and higher doses, but I had the opposite experience in fact. True I needed higher doses for a few years (at one point taking exceptionally strong morphine derivatives) but at the moment I take a fraction of what I used to and I have halved my dosage several times over the last few years via therapy, exercise, weight loss and breathing exercises. But yes, it breaks my heart the few people I know who suffer who refuse to try medicine. I think it’s part of the larger Christian philosophy that suffering is an inevitable part of life, we’re meant to suffer a little and pills are cheating (and a one way ticket to addiction). They suffer for so long when even a half dose that they are prescribed would help them. The best pain doctor I had told me: 1st…take as much (and no more) as you need to control the pain. 2nd. End the disruption to your life and get your life back on track. 3rd Do everything you can to recuperate and reduce the amount you are taking. He said people usually only come to them when they are desparate and they still highly resist opiates even with severe chronic pain. I know there are problems with addiction to opiates in the US, but we are talking chronic pain here, not people recovering from surgery or broken bones.

    #32966

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Unseen you are correct. I was thinking of race horses.

    #32967

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Having experienced episodic back pain i can imagine how tough it is. It seems like ever stinking movement involves the back, something i had no clue before experiencing it.

    My business partner is an atheist. His reluctance to get on opiates is cuz he did not want to have his acuity affected. It is constant thinking for attorneys and he was afraid he’d lose his edge. But being driven to distraction by pain made him realize that he had no reasonable choice. And as you say it is CHRONIC pain so it is a move you have to make. I think you got great advice in notion of only taking as great a dose as you need to manage the pain. And from what i have read it is no more effective long term at ridiculously high doses than it is on moderate doses.

    #32968

    Unseen
    Participant

    Here’s an idea people are actively saying is a dangerous idea: “If I lose, it can only be because the Democrats have rigged the election.” — Donald J. Trump

    They say this is an insidious idea that undermines the legitimacy of the electoral process.

    #32969

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    All wrong ideas are dangerous, but not all dangerous ideas are wrong: they may something else, such as lacking in common sense, or they may appear to contravene something sacred.  They may be as welcome as a skunk at a dinner party.

    #32970

    Unseen
    Participant

    All wrong ideas are dangerous, but not all dangerous ideas are wrong: they may something else, such as lacking in common sense, or they may appear to contravene something sacred. They may be as welcome as a skunk at a dinner party.

    I suppose E=mc² is a dangerous idea which is also true.

    #32971

    Unseen
    Participant

    Mindfulness is a dangerous idea in the sense that I can’t think of a recent concept with more guilt-inducing potential.

    Am I being mindful?
    Am I being mindful enough?
    What can I do to be more mindful?
    By being less mindful than I might, am I actively causing harm through inaction?

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  Unseen.
    #32972

    Davis
    Moderator

    I would say that Trump claiming that if he loses it means the democrats rigged the election (or cheated in some way) is only dangerous in certain countries. Saying that kind of thing in Canada and most of the EU will cost you lots of votes and damage nothing because citizens will be overwhelmingly revolted by being treated like stupid children. In other countries and currently in the US, this flagrantly dishonest, manipulative and insidious strategy will be eaten up by his adoring base supporters  (and polarise everyone) and certainly do damage to the democratic health of the nation. It’s a damaging idea and I know for a fact that in Norway a party can be heavily fined for negative ads and slandering another party. With the American 1st amendment its pretty hard to believe that could ever happen in the USA.

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